Roll Cage Welding - Cincinnati Area

[wilmesbm]

Ok, this is going to be a little out of the norm, but bare with me. I'm building a drag truck out of a 4x4 Dodge 2500 chassis and am in need of roll cage. I'm not really looking for something to be custom built as I'd prefer to buy a prebent kit and have someone weld it in for me. I know the prebent kits don't always fit that great, but it should be more than sufficient for this project.

So here's where I need your guys' help. Who in the Cincinnati area has experience with welding cages? I only know of one race car shop and they're already booked through May. A member of another forum I'm a part of mentioned Mike Karwath aka Carwash may be able to help or point me in the right direction, so hopefully he'll see this and chime in.

Other than that, I'm open to advice, ideas, and/or opinions. I know a couple of good welders, but would really prefer someone who is used to building cages.

Cage will be Chromoly so it will have to be TIG'd.

[93 Krawler]

Carwash hasn't logged in since 2015, so I doubt he will see this. I would PM him. He should get that by email.

[JeffK5]

Asphalt or sand/dirt/gravel?

Why chromoly?

[wilmesbm]

Carwash hasn't logged in since 2015, so I doubt he will see this. I would PM him. He should get that by email.

I sent him an email, thanks for the heads up.

[wilmesbm]

Tin Soldiers Racecars in Northern KY. Their website is opening soon but their facebook page is available. They can build anything to any sfi certification.

Having said that, I'm guessing that this is your first time dealing with cage work and drag racing. The cage is one where you don't cut corners. First, most shops won't touch prebent kits because they don't like welding, fitting and fixing these kits that are famous for poor fitment. Second, you're bound by the rules and regulations of NHRA once you hit the threshold where a cage becomes required. Tin Soldiers can build and install a cage that (will) pass inspection and won't fold in, trap, or aid in killing you if something does go wrong. Prebent kits will advertise anything in order to make a sale.

I must say, building a drag truck out of a 2500 4wd tank chassis seems odd.

Tin Soldier was the shop I eluded to in my first post. They were more than willing to weld in the pre-bent kit and said they had done so in the past, but are booked solid until the end of May. Obviously, they would prefer to build everything themselves, but were still willing.

This is not my first rodeo, I am fully aware of the NHRA rules and regulations. Your statement about fitment is not wrong, some of them don't fit all that well, especially if you're trying to work around the dash and any kind of interior. This truck will not have either of those, it is completely gutted.

Cost is the biggest factor in my decision. The kit is $800 shipped to your door and even if you paid someone $1000 to weld it in you're still at 50% of what it would cost to have a custom cage built. I requested quotes for both options before I made my decision, but I appreciate your concern.

As far as using a "4wd tank chassis" I'm afraid I would politely disagree. Ninety percent of the trucks in this class are 4wd and it will weigh 5,000lbs with me in it.

[wilmesbm]

What are your goals with this project? 15 seconds? 14? 13? 12? 11? Budget, 1/4 mile et & trap speed, total weight, keeping it 4wd or rework it to 2wd, strip or street/strip, engine, trans, drivetrain, gearing, manual or auto and if auto what stall. Is your goal just a weekend racer for fun or do you plan on getting into class racing. If it's class which one. If you're looking to spend at weight savings on a cage are you willing to spend elsewhere for more weight savings? If so, you need to look at ultralight wheels and brakes and panels etc etc. $$$$$$$, but you're starting with the heaviest chassis possible so you'll spend a fortune to bring it down (I'll still be a tank) when you could select a lighter chassis and go much faster for less $. What's your plan for the rear suspension design?

I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at with all the questions. It'll be competing in a 10.5 index class. It will remain 4wd. As I stated earlier, it will weigh in at approximately 5000lbs with me in the drivers seat. It's Cummins powered and will make approximately 1100hp on fuel and 1300ish hp on nitrous.

I understand this is out of the norm for you, but what I am doing is nothing new. My old truck consistently ran an 11.3 in 4wd in the quarter mile and it weighed 7800lbs. Full interior and was still daily driveable. It's nothing to have a 10 second daily driver at full weight these days as the power we are able to make is pretty impressive.

There's an 8.50 index class for diesels and more than half the field is still 4wd. Again, I understand this may sound crazy to people who are not familiar with the sport, but for us, it's just "normal".

[wilmesbm]

Asphalt or sand/dirt/gravel?

Why chromoly?

Asphalt, quarter and eighth mile depending on which track we're at. And dirt drags which are 300ft.

I daily drive an 11sec 2wd Dodge 1500 with a Cummins in it right now that I race as well, but obviously it can't compete in the dirt drags. That's one of the reasons I am building another 4wd, because the dirt drags are generally a lot more fun to compete in.

The NHRA still accepts mild steel cages, but, as far as I understand, they are the only sanctioning body that does. By going with chromoly you're only out of pocket an additional 2-300 dollars and you ensure that regardless of what event you go to you'll be allowed to run.

[JeffK5]

Asphalt, quarter and eighth mile depending on which track we're at. And dirt drags which are 300ft.

I daily drive an 11sec 2wd Dodge 1500 with a Cummins in it right now that I race as well, but obviously it can't compete in the dirt drags. That's one of the reasons I am building another 4wd, because the dirt drags are generally a lot more fun to compete in.

The NHRA still accepts mild steel cages, but, as far as I understand, they are the only sanctioning body that does. By going with chromoly you're only out of pocket an additional 2-300 dollars and you ensure that regardless of what event you go to you'll be allowed to run.

How do you attach a chromo cage to a stockish mild steel chassis..will you still have to have the it heat treated and certified?

I don't think Carwash does any tig work..or at least he didn't last time talked to him about fabing stuff.

[wilmesbm]

How do you attach a chromo cage to a stockish mild steel chassis..will you still have to have the it heat treated and certified?

I don't think Carwash does any tig work..or at least he didn't last time talked to him about fabing stuff.

That's a good question and it is my understanding that you can weld chromoly to steel, but I'm not a 100% sure on that. I'm by no means an expert on that though so don't take that as fact.

[JeffK5]

That's a good question and it is my understanding that you can weld chromoly to steel, but I'm not a 100% sure on that. I'm by no means an expert on that though so don't take that as fact.

You can weld 4130/4140 to mild steel ..no problem... but you can't do the metal treating needed to make chromo strong and crack resistant when it's welded to a frame made of something that reacts to the treating process totally different.

Without treating you've got an expensive cage that doesn't really offer any benefit over DOM mild steel..and the drawback of being very crack prone at the joints.

To take advantage of chromo you need to treat it and run thinner wall and smaller dia. ..big weight loss and more strength over mild tube.

I bet the cage will need to be bolt on..

[wilmesbm]

You can weld 4130/4140 to mild steel ..no problem... but you can't do the metal treating needed to make chromo strong and crack resistant when it's welded to a frame made of something that reacts to the treating process totally different.

Without treating you've got an expensive cage that doesn't really offer any benefit over DOM mild steel..and the drawback of being very crack prone at the joints.

To take advantage of chromo you need to treat it and run thinner wall and smaller dia. ..big weight loss and more strength over mild tube.

I bet the cage will need to be bolt on..

I will look through the rulebook tomorrow and see if it offers any insight.

[JeffK5]

You sure bout that? This is by far the best and most detailed page I've seen explaining 4130 and our uses.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/general-4x4-discussion/1104412-welding-4130-chromoly-steel.html

I'm fully aware of the diesel drag scene and the questions were out of curiosity. Karwath owns KillerKoatings in NKY, but he's so busy with his shop he sends any cage work to Tin Soldiers.

Sure about what?

I've got zero knowledge on chromoly chassis but I've been around welded 4130/40/50 for many years. Messed with it annealed , pre-heat treated but workable, surface hardened but flexible , or fully through hardened and only grind-able.

[mckeddie]

The weld shop.

Adam does pretty kick ass work. Not sure if he tigs or not though.