buggy will not start [Archive]

94Dodge Truggy

02-21-2007, 09:00 PM

Well, here it is. I have been doing alot of work on the buggy including welding. I recently left the key in the run position for a week while working on it. The batteries still have plenty of charge, but it will not start. I have spark but no power to the fuel pump or fuel pressure. Fuel pump is good. I am thinking that from welding and not disconnecting the battery and having the key in the run position that I have fried the computer:rolleyes: . The relay and fuse for the fuel pump are fine. Can I have the computer tested? I have a computer for the same year of truck, but it is for a 318 5 speed and my truck is a 360 auto. The truck is a 1994 dodge ram. Anybody have any knowledge on these trucks? Thanks, scott.

carwash

02-21-2007, 09:57 PM

that sucks man, does sound like you fried something... check ALL of your fuses first... if im right, dont you have some under the hood, in a compartment, those big ones?

hopefully a fuse would have caught the surge.

OH-cj5

02-21-2007, 10:05 PM

The only thing now is he needs a hood to look under have you seen this thing

sarge

02-21-2007, 11:54 PM

Like Mike said , check and re-check all fuses and relays and then I would put that 318 ECM in it and see if your pump works , it might run that 360 and it might not , but my guess is that it will at least communicate with the pump. Also disconnect the battery for a while and then reconnect and see what you get . Sounds almost like it went into a safety mode to save the pump and injecters?????? just guessing ..... it is a DODGE and well :D :D

94Dodge Truggy

02-22-2007, 08:26 AM

Sounds like it is the ecu. I did try disconnecting the battery for 1/2 of an hour with no luck. Gonna try the backup ecu and see what happens tonight:o . thanks for the info.

carwash

02-22-2007, 09:38 AM

first line of the instructions for EVERY repair in a haynes or chilton's manual is what? "disconnect the battery."

i don't always do it either, unless i'm welding on a vehicle a bunch... then i do. I bet you will from now on too.

94Dodge Truggy

02-22-2007, 10:04 AM

Yeah, I have never disconnected the battery for any repair ever. But with the key in the run position while mig and tig welding it was a first:o :( . Probably the last.

jeep304

02-22-2007, 01:06 PM

Can't do it right now...BUT ..I will give you the technicalitys of welding on vehicles soon....DOESN'T ALWAYS HAVE TO BE DISSCONECTED...(ie) current
passage....Nowa

94Dodge Truggy

02-22-2007, 01:44 PM

This ecu has been a very hard piece to locate. Looks like it will be a 540.00 frick up.:mad: Hope its the problem.

carwash

02-22-2007, 01:56 PM

Can't do it right now...BUT ..I will give you the technicalitys of welding on vehicles soon....DOESN'T ALWAYS HAVE TO BE DISSCONECTED...(ie) current
passage....Nowa
Why worry about a list of rules as to when you hvae to and don't have to, just disconnect it and be done with it. It's one bolt.

jeep304

02-22-2007, 09:15 PM

The point I was making is that if you know what your doing...YOU NEVER HAVE TO! ! ! ......Nowa

jeep304

02-22-2007, 09:18 PM

OH and by the way......in 30 years I've never fried anything....and I've welded on quater of a million dollar race cars....Nowa

94Dodge Truggy

02-22-2007, 10:31 PM

Just hoping now that the computer is the problem. I ordered a computer for the motor that has capability to be custom tuned so now I can get more hp out of the mods done on the 360. Just trying to think on the bright side. Wife says I broke it on purpose and commented that more HP = more breakage and I reassured her that breakage would be minimal ;) .

carwash

02-22-2007, 11:42 PM

OH and by the way......in 30 years I've never fried anything....and I've welded on quater of a million dollar race cars....Nowa
well let's here how it works then... teach us.

jeep304

02-23-2007, 07:56 AM

The first thing to know is to never have your ground clamp any more than about a foot away from the weld zone ! ! ! ! ! Your current passage is only
between these two points. If you open up this distance the current can pass through anything in its path. I've known people to ground to the front and weld at the rear of a vehicle...again...anything in its path.....Nowa

blazerbrad

02-23-2007, 10:27 AM

If you have the diagnostic port installed it's normally just a matter of hooking up a scan tool and seeing if it will read it. If only certain parts/circuits are fried (I've seen this on Chrysler ECMs before) than sometimes a base level generic ready is harder to use. I know that a good reader like a DRBIII or newer that a dealership uses has the capability of looking at all of the parameters the ECM controls and therefore would be really easy to see if it was trying to trigger the pump.

carwash

02-23-2007, 10:46 AM

94Dodge Truggy

02-26-2007, 12:17 PM

jeep304

02-26-2007, 12:42 PM

Gey hold of crazi429.....ask him for help....after 6 pm.......Nowa

carwash

02-26-2007, 12:45 PM

New computer did not fix it. Looking at the ignition switch now, but the motor cranks and has spark but will not energize the fuel pump. When I left the key on for a week maybe it messed up the ignition switch? No idea, back to troubleshooting!:confused:
How about getting a diagnostic run on it. Do you know anyone that as a mobile unit, or can you get to an autozone or a repair shop with it?

94Dodge Truggy

02-26-2007, 01:07 PM

So many deleted sensors and wiring removed that a diagnostic machine would go brezerk I think.

carwash

02-26-2007, 01:15 PM

was just thinking maybe worth a try.

94Dodge Truggy

02-26-2007, 01:35 PM

I am thinking that maybe from leaving the key on that something else may have fried itself.

carwash

02-26-2007, 02:08 PM

have you tried starting it by bypassing the ignition switch?

hell, just yank all the wiring and rewire it.

94Dodge Truggy

02-26-2007, 02:16 PM

I have thought about rewiring the whole thing. I would like to tackle that next winter. Good idea on the hard wire idea. I am going to run a power wire to the fuel pump and try to fire it up. I would do this permanently but the computer tells the pump when to energize and when to stop and the excess fuel bypasses in the tank and recirculates. The fuel does not get bypassed out by the fuel rails. Pretty simple design. Need to fool it!

carwash

02-26-2007, 02:41 PM

it's probably your ignition switch, prolly easily and cheaply had, im sure it was used across many models.

94Dodge Truggy

02-26-2007, 02:53 PM

Where in the hell do ya think they would put that switch? Never had to replace one. Could be the 1st ever.

94Dodge Truggy

02-26-2007, 07:47 PM

No spark and no power being sent to fuel pump, but will crank all day.

KargoMaster

02-27-2007, 01:32 PM

Yuk, I hate electrical problems...
I guess that's part of my aversion to EFI for mine...

PROPANE BABY!! :D

JasonCJ7

03-04-2007, 04:06 PM

When I had smilar problems with my CJ it ended up being a short in the wiring to the fuse block. I direct wired my coil to my power switch and my fuel pump is mechanical not electrical.

Mike F

03-08-2007, 08:11 PM

Looking at the diagrams for a 94 it does look like it could be the ignition switch. The blue wire that goes to the fuel pump relay coil is also the power wire for the computer (seperate blue wire from a spliced connection).

Check for 12v + with the key on at the relay, if no power it could also be a fuse before or after the ignition switch.

Wire diagrams at www.autozone.com http://www.autozone.com/servlet/UiBroker?ForwardPage=/az/cds/en_us/0900823d/80/11/3b/c2/0900823d80113bc2.jsp

diaram fig 28

94Dodge Truggy

03-08-2007, 09:51 PM

Hey mike, I see you also have a fuelie 360. I replaced the ignition switch, coil, computer, crank sensor, fuses, relays, cam sensor, neutral safety switch etc... I do have power through the blue wire going to the fuel pump and the automatic shutdown relay. The computer is feeding 2.8 volts to most of the sensors. Before I burn the truggy, I think I am going to take it to j & n. They are in woodlawn near cincinnati and are confident that they can figure it out and help me simplify the wiring. Thanks alot for the info.

Mike F

03-08-2007, 10:37 PM

They can probably hook into the computer and see what is going on.

Looks like you hit all the obvious potential problem parts. Hope it is not something expensive to fix, it looks like you have spent enough money on it.

It will be interesting to find out what the problem is. I have never worked with Chrysler EFI.

Well I have a AMC 360 with GM TBI on it that I installed and programed not the Dodge 360. I have also helped a few guys with MV4W fuel inject thier Jeeps.

Good Luck
Mike

KargoMaster

03-09-2007, 08:58 AM

EFI AMC 360 sounds nice... I ended up going to Propane for the AMC 360 in my build... that's if I ever get to work on it... :(

94Dodge Truggy

03-09-2007, 09:09 AM

Man, kargojack! I believe you are the hijacker :D ;)

AKToy

03-10-2007, 10:19 AM

Did you get it figured out (why the fuel pump won't cycle) yet?

94Dodge Truggy

03-10-2007, 10:55 AM

Still broke. Fuel pump will not cycle due to a fault for the automatic shutdown relay I believe.

KargoMaster

03-10-2007, 09:16 PM

Man, kargojack! I believe you are the hijacker :D ;)

At least I know the difference between an AMC and a Chrysler 360!!

You end up taking it to someone else, or are you still banging your head against the concrete...?

94Dodge Truggy

03-11-2007, 08:21 PM

what do you mean amc/chrysler 360? Buggy may be going to the shop this week to jn. I am kicking around a 4bt cummins. Had the boat out today on brookville lake.

KargoMaster

03-12-2007, 01:26 AM

what do you mean amc/chrysler 360?

Hrmmm.... maybe I've mis-interpreted...

Your FIRST post in this thread...
...my truck is a 360 auto...

A few back...
Hey mike, I see you also have a fuelie 360...

Isn't one a Chrysler 360 and the other an AMC 360? :D

I may have 'jacked Jack's thread, but I know that these are not the same engine... that's all I was saying...

You get a temp on the water? Few years ago I went (without a wet/drysuit) in about 40 degrees in Brookville in March... Wow, that'll give the ol' system a shock! I beleive the first and only time that I've felt compelled to open the engine bay and climb in for warmth!

sarge

03-12-2007, 02:22 AM

Just a random thought ! I seems to have a lot of those on these slow , cold midnights ....... My 94 Grand Cherokee had the 318 FI and it had it's fair share of electrical problems .... One was that the factory anti-theft would set it's self from time to time ( and when the battery was unhooked or dead ) and it would not start . I had to unlock it from the drivers door with the key to disable the anti theft crap!!!!
Now I know you don't have doors ( or much of body left ) so this might be a problem but it might be a cause :confused: :confused: :confused: I know it's a different vehicle but they're cousins .

mike shelton

03-12-2007, 08:07 AM

dodge fuel pump get thier fire from the dist i think. no spark no pump. slap another dist in it before you send it to someone to just throw cash at. gabby

Mike F

03-12-2007, 09:12 PM

Looks like autozone mixed up the wire diagrams.

Diagram fig. 29 shows the 94 v8 not a 4cyl as in fig. 28 that should be the V8.

In the diagram no connection is shown to the dist. so I would think the signal would come from the crank sensor for spark. Does the dist. have any kind of pickup in it? A lot of EFI sytems do look for a signal from the dist. and like Shelton said will not do any thing with out it.

I do not have a chrysler book, is 2.8v the correct signal voltage? I thougt a lot of the systems used 5v. Can the position sensors be tested possibly? On a way out thought, is the motor turning over fast enough to get a good signal from the sensors? Do you have a solid 12v to the computer while cranking? The computer may not turn on if it does not have close to 12v. How about computer/sensor grounds, one could have been toasted if it tried to carry welding voltage for some reason like connecting the welder ground to the frame and welding on the body. Is the computer plug actually making a connection with the computer on all terminals?

A lot of thoughts, maybe some help maybe not. ;)

94Dodge Truggy

03-12-2007, 11:15 PM

I have been able to fool the computer by grounding the black with tan or pink wire and running a hot wire to the coil. But when the motor warms up after a few minutes it runs like poo at idle and eventually stalls out. I replaced the crank sensor and pickup sensor in the distributor also. I will do more checks on the correct signal voltage and make sure the continuity between sensors and computer are good.

Mike F

03-13-2007, 11:50 PM

In the diagram two wires are black/tan pins 11 & 12. The diagram does not show what they do, they may be grounds. If you only grounded one you may need to ground the other. Running hot to the coil looks to bypass the auto shutdown relay that may not be getting the ground signal from the computer due to a bad ground on the other black/tan wire possibly? The fuel pump relay gets the same ground so if it is working now why is the shut down relay not working?

The motor running bad could be one of the temp sensors, IAC, MAP, or a vacuum leak. Hard to tell.

94Dodge Truggy

03-14-2007, 08:16 AM

I like your ground idea. I am going to try that after work tonight!

blazerbrad

03-14-2007, 11:05 AM

Have you hooked up a diagnostic tool yet? Do you have the capability to do this (i.e. is the diagnostic port installed)?

Please don't take this personally, but you are wasting a lot of time and money throwing random parts at the engine and hoping you get lucky.

Anyway, here are a few places to start. This is assuming the ASD relay is good.

**NOTE: take a good look at any connectors you unhook for bent pins, loose wires/broken wires, dirt, or green crud (corrosion), my guess is this will the be the ultimate cause of the problem.

1. actuate ASD (we usually do it with the DRB tool but I believe turning the key on will do it also, but remember that I believe it will only give power to the fuel pump for a few seconds upon initial key-on)
2. touch fuel pump relay (located in the power distribution center...big fuse box), it should pulsate when you first turn the key on
2a. yes - turn ignition off, disconnect FP relay, (diagnostic procedure does not say to turn ignition back on???), probe cavity D on the PDC (location where the relay was), is voltage above 10 V?
2b. no - disconnect FP relay, turn ignition on, probe cavity A on the PDC (location where the relay was), is voltage above 10 V?

Also, while the FP relay is out check the resistance between pins 85 and 86. The resistance should be below 100 ohms. If not, the relay is probably bad.

This is further down the chart, but it would probably we worth it to do a visual inspection of the fuel pump harness connector (it's a 5 pin flat style connector, but can't remember exactly where it is).

If you get a chance do these procedures and see what the results are, then we can go from there.

94Dodge Truggy

03-14-2007, 11:19 AM

diagnostic port was eliminated a year ago along with the interior fuse panel. The fuse and relay box is still connected.

blazerbrad

03-14-2007, 03:10 PM

diagnostic port was eliminated a year ago along with the interior fuse panel. The fuse and relay box is still connected.

Getting rid of the diagnostic port just made it about 10 times harder to figure out a problem like this, but I guess that's a moot point now.

Couple of other things I forgot to mention.

Make sure you have at least 10V at the battery!

You can also do a quick check of the ASD relay the same way was the FP relay. Check to see if it's clicking when you key-on. If not, pull the relay and check the resistance between 85 and 86. Then probe cavity A on the PDC for voltage.

94Dodge Truggy

03-14-2007, 04:16 PM

Choosing to get rid of the diagnostic port eliminated 70 percent of the wires. I thought it would be easier to troubleshoot with less wires. That may have been a bad idea! Both the fuel pump relay and the asd relay do not click at all unless I fool the computer and run power to the coil and ground the black with brown wire and get the truck running.

94Dodge Truggy

03-14-2007, 04:18 PM

$300.00 reward to the fellar who can get it running like it should.

KargoMaster

03-14-2007, 04:28 PM

The quote from JN musta been pretty bad... :(

carwash

03-14-2007, 04:42 PM

electrical problems have got to be the most aggravating in the world on a vehicle...

hope you get it figured out man. gotta be somebody on here that can fix it.

94Dodge Truggy

03-14-2007, 04:52 PM

The quote from JN musta been pretty bad... :(
The quote was good, but my enclosed trailer will not be in until 3-21-07 and I am impatient. Plus the thing will be a pain to get over there with no power.

carwash

03-14-2007, 04:57 PM

$50 tow? gotta be someone that could get it there for you.

blazerbrad

03-14-2007, 05:28 PM

If you get a chance, do this to the ASD relay.......... pull the relay and check the resistance between 85 and 86. Then probe cavity A on the PDC for voltage.

If it's the auto-theft, then I'm not sure what to do. With the diagnostic tool it takes about 10 seconds to see if that is the issue (not trying to be a prick or anything, that's just the way it is).

Mike F

03-14-2007, 06:33 PM

blazerbrad, do you have the complet set of wire diagrams for the 94? If you do the wire harnes can be rebuilt for what is needed and still be stripped down to the bare min.

94Dodge, do you still have all the wires and connectors you pulled? It would save a junk yard run. Did you buy a new programable computer? Maybe the auto theft could be turned off. Did you say the relays turn on after you jump things out? That would show they work if they do, if not they will need to be tested as blazerbrad said. You did say you bought new ones.

The autozone diagram is not the greatest and does not realy show the auto theft.

With the rebuilt harnes you could plug in the diagnostic tool and possibly not even have to if you discover a wire that is bad or missing.

94Dodge Truggy

03-15-2007, 08:22 AM

I threw away all of the removed harness since the truck ran great for a year + since. I am not going to have time to check it out further until friday afternoon. I checked the resistance between 85 and 86 and tested good. I do not think that the truck had auto theft on it.

blazerbrad

03-15-2007, 11:06 AM

Alright, here are a few more steps. Sorry for jumping around so much but I'm trying to decipher the procedure that is written assuming you are using a diagnostic tool.

Check power to the ASD relay as mentioned before.

Disconnect PCM connector and remove ASD relay. Check resistance in the circuit between the PCM and ASD connection (pin 51 of the PCM connector, and cavity C of the relay connector). Should be below 5 ohms.

I do not have the complete wiring diagram, just a few documents I scrounged up at work...we rarely do anything with vehicle that is not brand new, so I'm just lucky we still have some

94Dodge Truggy

03-20-2007, 04:23 PM

Finished up the driveshafts and spare set today. Tackling the wiring tonight. I may try to make it out to the haspin run this weekend.

carwash

03-20-2007, 04:31 PM

so its running now?

94Dodge Truggy

03-20-2007, 05:23 PM

Not running well, but I have some ideas tonight, and if they do not work I am picking up the enclosed trailer form tom raper tomorrow and I will take it to jn electric.

94Dodge Truggy

04-02-2007, 10:43 PM

Well, the truggy is at JN electric now and I have a feeling that my wallet will be feeling pretty light. When I drove it out of the trailer I looked at all of the mechanics faces as they were staring at the truggy and I couldn't decide if they were curious or wondering who would get stuck with this crappy wiring job. The shop foreman asked me what the truggy was used for and I told him that I cut my grass with it. :rolleyes:

KargoMaster

04-05-2007, 01:12 PM

Any news?

94Dodge Truggy

04-05-2007, 02:38 PM

Their head shop tech calls about twice a day asking questions about what he is looking at. I gave em 3 weeks to work on it since the new addition to the family is due any day now. I have the check book, credit card, debit card and the loan all ready for the final bill from JN electric since they haven't even given me a quote yet. :o

KargoMaster

04-05-2007, 04:19 PM

Cool... good luck with the new addition...

94Dodge Truggy

04-06-2007, 11:58 PM

Looks like 1 grand to rewire everything from scratch. :eek:

KargoMaster

04-07-2007, 12:05 AM

Looks like 1 grand to rewire everything from scratch. :eek:

:eek: :eek: :eek:

Errr, uhhh, did you have that much in the rest of it... kidding.
You should not have another electrical problem for at least a run or two.

carwash

04-07-2007, 10:40 AM

wow man... that sucks the balls.

jeepmanjeff

04-07-2007, 02:24 PM

why not get a painless wiring harness and rewire it yourself ? Would be a lot cheaper and you would learn everything there is to know about the electronic sytstmes.

94Dodge Truggy

04-07-2007, 03:59 PM

Painless does not make one for a 1994 dodge ram, and I already know more than I care to know about the computer and wiring now. Got fed up and ran out of time. These guys wire custom hot rods, fire trucks and anything in between so I figured that they will do it better than I can. Last year I was able to eliminate 50% of the wiring and now they are going to be able to eliminate 40% more. The switches will be painless wiring switches along with the breaker panel. (no more fuses) I know what you mean JEEPMANJEFF when it comes to knowing how your rig ticks, but this sucker is complicated and gave me way too many headaches. I can't wait to run this sucker with the new setup and the custom computer tune! I will still need to take it to MD motorsports for the dyno tune when I get it back. (goal is 400 rwhp. reliably) :cool: