Catsle law???

[Nuts]

If I'm working in my detached garage and someone breaks in while I'm in there and I shoot them is it self defense? I read a ton of info in the Ohio revised code and found out about your home,temporary home, and car but nothing about a garage. Not sure if there are any lawyers on here but maybe someone could point me in the right direction. I'm asking because my garage has been broken into twice in the last month, the last time was just minutes after I went in. Its getting kind of nerv racking being out there at night not knowing if someone is coming in or not...

[tinbeater]

If I'm working in my detached garage and someone breaks in while I'm in there and I shoot them is it self defense?

I would think if they was going to harm you.
But ????

[JET455]

If they are armed yes! if not no! So just throw a weapon on them if you kill them! and make sure they are dead so you do not have to deal with it all later. Like them sueing you for being dumb enough for breaking into your place and you protecting yourself......

[mossyoaktj]

hmmm..i always figured as long as they didnt make it out the door then its ok as long as ur life was in danger or if u had some sort of no trespassing sign. just my .02

[TomH]

And the answers you get here will influence a shoot/don't shoot decision in real life?

Yeah, right.

:cool:

[Flxratd]

just make sure you dont shoot them in the back because they feel the threat is over if they are leaving. the curent justice system seems to protect the criminal as far as rights are concerned.

[Hope Springs Hauler]

That is a good question to pose in my ccw class in a couple of weeks. We'll see what the officers have to say

[Nuts]

And the answers you get here will influence a shoot/don't shoot decision in real life?

Yeah, right.

:cool:

lol no, I wasn't really looking for a yes or no, just a push in the right direction to fine out.

That is a good question to pose in my ccw class in a couple of weeks. We'll see what the officers have to say

Ask them and let me know what they say!

[99Slobra]

If its anything like Florida's Castle law:

One: It establishes, in law, the presumption that a criminal who forcibly enters or intrudes into your home or occupied vehicle is there to cause death or great bodily harm, therefore a person may use any manner of force, including deadly force, against that person.

Two: It removes the "duty to retreat" if you are attacked in any place you have a right to be. You no longer have to turn your back on a criminal and try to run when attacked. Instead, you may stand your ground and fight back, meeting force with force, including deadly force, if you reasonably believe it is necessary to prevent death or great bodily harm to yourself or others. [This is an American right repeatedly recognized in Supreme Court gun cases.]

Three: It provides that persons using force authorized by law shall not be prosecuted for using such force.

[WrenchMonkey]

When you're confronted by a criminal, you don't have the luxury of time. Under the ‘Castle Doctrine’ provision, if someone breaks into your occupied home or temporary habitation, or your occupied car, you now have an initial presumption that you may act in self defense and you will not be second-guessed by the State.

The bottom line is that you may defend your life, or the life of another in your residence or vehicle, and have no duty to retreat before using deadly force against an attacker or invader. A criminal may not successfully sue you for damages he sustained while committing a felony or a violent misdemeanor, including injuries sustained as a result of your intentional acts (shooting him) while engaged in self-defense.

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/5753
http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/5758/

Robert

[Hope Springs Hauler]

I think the rub here is the exacting language used. Does "home" include a detached garage. All of the citations in this thread say home, house, residence, vehicle, etc. Point 2 of florida's verbage does have the caveat of "if you are attacked in any place you have a right to be."

[TomH]

If I'm working in my detached garage and someone breaks in while I'm in there .

Does "home" include a detached garage.

I appreciate that there is no such thing as a stupid question, but, c'mon...


History is written by the survivors, if you get what I'm sayin'

[Nuts]

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/5753
http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/5758/

Robert

I've read through all those and I'm wondering a garage counts as a "temporary habitation"

[Hope Springs Hauler]

I appreciate that there is no such thing as a stupid question, but, c'mon...


History is written by the survivors, if you get what I'm sayin'

I appreciate what you're saying, but I'm talkin' about lawyers here. They get off on details like this. At the very least, to know that you're alive is great but you may or may not be facing severe civil penalties because the castle doctrine does or doesn't apply. If the castle doctrine doesn't apply, I'd say a 3ft stick of DOM to the side of the head would be just as effective and much less prosecuteable.

My dearest wish is that we find court interpretations that define "home" to be the main residence and any secured outbuildings. The less thoughts you have rushing through your mind, the better.

BTW, have any of you actually had to pull a gun on someone? It ain't a John Wayne type feeling like you think it would be. Understand that.

[TomH]

I appreciate what you're saying, but I'm talkin' about lawyers here. They get off on details like this. At the very least, to know that you're alive is great but you may or may not be facing severe civil penalties because the castle doctrine does or doesn't apply. If the castle doctrine doesn't apply, I'd say a 3ft stick of DOM to the side of the head would be just as effective and much less prosecuteable.

My dearest wish is that we find court interpretations that define "home" to be the main residence and any secured outbuildings. The less thoughts you have rushing through your mind, the better.

BTW, have any of you actually had to pull a gun on someone? It ain't a John Wayne type feeling like you think it would be. Understand that.

If you've ever been in a shoot/don't shoot situation then you would appreciate that what the court might or might not say is irrelevant. (i.e. Take your chances with a jury versus an armed intruder.) But then again, I suppose YOUR best move might be to use one of your "Lifeline" calls to get an answer; hope your cell is close by.:rolleyes:

[Hope Springs Hauler]

If you've ever been in a shoot/don't shoot situation then you would appreciate that what the court might or might not say is irrelevant. (i.e. Take your chances with a jury versus an armed intruder.) But then again, I suppose YOUR best move might be to use one of your "Lifeline" calls to get an answer; hope your cell is close by.:rolleyes:


Try answering the question before posing your own. ;) So are you saying you HAVE had to pull a gun on someone? Unless the answer is yes, I've got you on this one as I have held an intruder on the ground, gun in his face until the cop arrived AND resisted the temptation to end another's life. He broke in the back door of my house.

(The bittersweet conclusion to the story was that the cop lost the guy on the way to the car:eek: Great Lexington PD)

Your belief that the judge or jury's opinion is completely irrelevant had better be backed up by DEEP pockets. It ain't a criminal case I'm worried about; it's the stinking civil case that bothers me. You are also assuming that the intruder IS armed....etc. There are a lot of "if's" to any situation and you seem to be assuming that actually using deadly force is the correct answer immediately instead of taking a split second, assessing the situation and making a decision. I just hope a friend or family member doesn't drop in on you, you kill them and then you have to live with that regret because you didn't pause to assess the situation.

[WrenchMonkey]

I've read through all those and I'm wondering a garage counts as a "temporary habitation"

Well, technically, I'd say no.

The law specifically names residences and vehicles. But by the definitions in ORC 2901.05-D:

(2) “Dwelling” means a building or conveyance of any kind that has a roof over it and that is designed to be occupied by people lodging in the building or conveyance at night, regardless of whether the building or conveyance is temporary or permanent or is mobile or immobile. As used in this division, a building or conveyance includes, but is not limited to, an attached porch, and a building or conveyance with a roof over it includes, but is not limited to, a tent.
(3) “Residence” means a dwelling in which a person resides either temporarily or permanently or is visiting as a guest.
(4) “Vehicle” means a conveyance of any kind, whether or not motorized, that is designed to transport people or property.

I'd say a garage would qualify as a "dwelling," not a "residence," and thus not be covered under the Castle Law.


That said, I think it'd take a pretty lousy lawyer (but I repeat myself) to lose that case for you.

Robert

[thefuzz]

Ok any ocupied struture can be a garage, outhouse, anything that is ocupied by human life ant any times... just as a camper or motorhome is considered a home if it is ocupied at times ..as for shooting someone and placing a weapon on them or around them i advise you NOT TO you'll get in more trouble for tampering with the crime scene then the shooting.. keep in mind if you alwayse shoot to STOP THE THREAT!! never say shoot to kill if the subject dies o well if they car reserect him to get a statment from him that says he did not mean any harm to you then go for it..

active law enforcment for over 14 years now >>> and a OHIO peace officer certified firearms instructor for the state..:D :D :beers: :beers:

[TomH]

Try answering the question before posing your own. ;) So are you saying you HAVE had to pull a gun on someone? Unless the answer is yes, I've got you on this one as I have held an intruder on the ground, gun in his face until the cop arrived AND resisted the temptation to end another's life. He broke in the back door of my house.

(The bittersweet conclusion to the story was that the cop lost the guy on the way to the car:eek: Great Lexington PD)

Your belief that the judge or jury's opinion is completely irrelevant had better be backed up by DEEP pockets. It ain't a criminal case I'm worried about; it's the stinking civil case that bothers me. You are also assuming that the intruder IS armed....etc. There are a lot of "if's" to any situation and you seem to be assuming that actually using deadly force is the correct answer immediately instead of taking a split second, assessing the situation and making a decision. I just hope a friend or family member doesn't drop in on you, you kill them and then you have to live with that regret because you didn't pause to assess the situation.

I sure fell for that one. (i.e. The excuse to inject that stirring tale of your hand gun heroics.) Well, fact of the matter is that I have pulled a gun in self defense after someone broke into our house, but the outcome was nowhere near as dramatic. He fled before I could hold him down and put a gun in his face.

PS,
Thanks for the self-righteous firearm and legal liability lecture, (The "split second, assessing the situation and making a decision" verbiage was especially moving.) but you're about 30 years too late.

[Hope Springs Hauler]

Well, I guess you have just proved that you are SO much better than me:rolleyes:
By your statements, you are a self-righteous prig that would be willing to shoot anyone (if they didn't run), then think about consequenses later. It must be awesome to live completely without fear of the abomination that is our legal system.

If you fell for anything, it was for the fact that you assume that people speak out of theory and not experience. Hand gun, or long gun, they are both deadly force. and you must have a sense of the gravity of their use before you take that responsibility. I'm going to leave this conversation before I say something that needs moderated.

Adam, I will let you know what this instructor says. Hopefully it mirrors what the instructor above has said (thefuzz).

[Nuts]

Adam, I will let you know what this instructor says. Hopefully it mirrors what the instructor above has said (thefuzz).

Thanks man,and for the record I'm not planning on shooting anyone! I was just wondering what would happen if the situation arose and wanted to find out anything I could about it.

[kb9qdi]

Good reading :evilgrin:

[Waffle]

There will be a criminal investigation. Guaranteed! You would be deemed innocent only if you errr, *they* perceived that your life was in *imminent danger*. A man standing there with a knife in his hand is not a threat on life. Only if the man attacked you. Obviously your life is number 1 to you, but you also have to be able to survive our justice system. DA's can be rutheless and a cheap lawyer might leave you high and dry. Plant a knife. Ok....did you wipe your prints off? Are his prints on it? Does it match any other knives in your possession? Was it bought with a credit card where a reciept could link it to ya? Was it washed completely removing all traces of your dna? How about flower pollen linking it to your wife's flowers sitting on the counter. Or......it's so fawkin clean that the DA becomes suspicious saying the perp couldn't have had possession of it. Would you survive interogation without cracking under pressure?

[Waffle]

Oh, and don't expect to get all of the information you need from a CC class. Not going to happen. You need to do serious research with your state and local laws. Even then it could be you facing a jury. Don't forget that evidence in a crimal court is different than in civil court. Just ask OJ!

[Flxratd]

im going to watch csi this week so i can get the facts just trying to decide if i go with miami,new york or vegas. i personally dont own a gun and i dont care who does as long as its not pointed at me but being the son of a 28 year now retired police officer i can say that there is alot more to shooting a gun than just being able to pull the trigger.

[Hope Springs Hauler]

im going to watch csi this week so i can get the facts just trying to decide if i go with miami,new york or vegas.


I'd say go with Miami.....the chicks are hotter:D

[fordman00]

If I'm working in my detached garage and someone breaks in while I'm in there and I shoot them is it self defense? I read a ton of info in the Ohio revised code and found out about your home,temporary home, and car but nothing about a garage. Not sure if there are any lawyers on here but maybe someone could point me in the right direction. I'm asking because my garage has been broken into twice in the last month, the last time was just minutes after I went in. Its getting kind of nerv racking being out there at night not knowing if someone is coming in or not...

talked to a teacher who has over 35 years in law enforcement in Ohio and he said anywhere you are if someone tries to do bodily harm towards you or a family member it is self defense, and so on, but he wouldnt recommend shooting them just maybe a warning shot somewhere other than their body.

[GPER]

And put a hole in my roof, I'd rather put the hole in them.

[RuffedUpXJ]

And put a hole in my roof, I'd rather put the hole in them.

Gotta slow him down enough to have the cops catch them. Now if its Trenton no need to shot because all of their cops are in fine athletic shape, even Pocahontas. Just messing Sarge.

Have there been any cases like this you have ran across Sarge?

[fordman00]

id personally would rather not shoot him at all unless he presented a weapon because if he did then you have proof beyond a reasonable doubt that he intended to do harm and it would hold in court you were acted in self defense.sarge could maybe elaborate more about the court stuff, but i wouldnt want to shoot him unless he came at me or presented a weapon etc.

[Nuts]

I already said I'm not planning on shooting anybody.I just wondered what the law was incase it came to that. You never know what a crack head is going to do when they get caught breaking in somewhere...

[fordman00]

yeah, with the hard times people are desperate. a drive thru down the road from me was robbed at knife point and another one was robbed by gun point.

[Waffle]

talked to a teacher who has over 35 years in law enforcement in Ohio and he said anywhere you are if someone tries to do bodily harm towards you or a family member it is self defense, and so on, but he wouldnt recommend shooting them just maybe a warning shot somewhere other than their body.

Yeah it's self defense, but bodily harm isn't the same as imminent danger regarding life. That teacher should know better. You can draw to show the threat, which usually works. But a methed out crack head with no weapon means you can't shoot. Then what do you do! That's why my 45 gets carried with a taser. Any properly trained police department does the same for the exact same reason.

Warning shot! Seriously? FMJ ball ammo can rip through a wall taking down your neighbor walking the dog or anything. Even your kid playing wii. That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard from someone with LE experience.......

[GPER]

So I'll just give the intruder a questionnaire to see if he marks yes on the question. Do you wish to harm my family????

[94Dodge Truggy]

So I'll just give the intruder a questionnaire to see if he marks yes on the question. Do you wish to harm my family????

Bingo! :eek:

[MrShoeBoy]

But a methed out crack head with no weapon means you can't shoot. Then what do you do!

A methed out crack head regardless if they have a weapon is a threat. The drugs dull the sense of pain and reason so they will continue until their body can no longer function. If placed in a suituation where a druged out meth head broke in my house I would shoot to stop the threat. They themselves are a weapon.

AARON

[Waffle]

A methed out crack head regardless if they have a weapon is a threat. The drugs dull the sense of pain and reason so they will continue until their body can no longer function. If placed in a suituation where a druged out meth head broke in my house I would shoot to stop the threat. They themselves are a weapon.

AARON

Then you would probably be charged with a degree of manslaughter! And their family would gain the right to sue you in civil court. You need to think before you act. This is what makes these situations so dangerous. Your required to comprehend the level of danger at that time. If you shoot and a jury decides you acted with unwaranted leathal force, you will be found guilty.

[Waffle]

Here is a scenario I like to make. Lets say your lying in bed and you hear some screaming. You get up and grab the gun. Heading toward the front door you hear someone has just gained entry to the rear. Turning around you see a person all of a sudden appear from a hallway. *You fire* In fear of your life. But wait. This guy doesn't have a gun. Lying there motionless on the floor with the pool of blood getting bigger. You lower your weapon and then another person enters from the same area. you proceed to take them down as well.......
Turns out the person you shot was actually fleeing for their lives from another attacker (2nd victim) and hoped to evade them by going in your place. A police investigation reveals that the first victim was an enemy of the second and was simply trying to escape.
Now what happens. No leathel weapon on their person and their dead in your hallway. Guess what.......Your in cuffs with your wife and kids crying and screaming! Not only did your actions affect the lives of the victims in the shooting, but the lives of your family as well.
House and all possessions are sold to afford a good trial attorney. Need I go on? Wild scenario....yes. But a true one!

[Waffle]

Some of you might say "OH well".....but the story of you will be written in the paper of the good guy that made 1 bad mistake. That mistake got him 10-15 years.

[Waffle]

If an officer has his gun drawn on a man who is also holding a gun but lowered by his side. That officer doesn't have the right to shoot. The other man doesn't pose imminent danger until he raises his firearm. Those same laws apply to you.
Yes there are circumstances that can be argued in court. And jury's can swing either way depending on the argument.
Hmmmm, seems as though this is a touchy subject for me. I guess I just want everyone to gain as much knowledge as possible and a little perspective. I'd hate to see 1 bad mistake ruin the lives of so many close to that person....

[blazerbrad]

Law enforcement agents are held to a higher level when it comes to situations as mentioned above, so you can't really compare a cop pulling a gun on an armed person while in the process of committing a felony versus a private citizen pulling a gun on somebody breaking into their house in the middle of the night. But even in the case of a suspect holding a weapon that is not raised I would think that at some point in time a law enforcement agent could justify pulling the trigger if they refused to drop the weapon (I'l try to pose this question to my uncle who is a retired federal agent).

I also understand the point about waiting until someone pulls a weapon on you before shooting them, but you also need to realize that it is often too late once that happens. This isn't Hollywood and warning shots and shooting the gun out of his hand is only practical in the movies. The average gun or other weapon fight inside a building puts the two people within arms length of each other and lasts a matter of seconds......if you wait for the intruder to pull a knife it will probably be sticking out of your chest before you have time to react.

From my experience most people try to use some real world example of a guy that shot an intruder in his house and wound up in jail, but they conveniently leave out the very blatant details as to why the guy went to jail. Kind of like the story about how you shouldn't shovel the snow from the sidewalk in front of your house because that makes you liable if somebody slips and falls then. Did something like that happen....sure, but the guy was pissed he was told to shovel the sidewalk by the city so he sprayed it with water to intentionally coat it with ice afterwards....and that's the real reason he got in trouble.