Hydro steering on a yota

[Jonesy]

Just got a 86 toyota and want to link the front and rear for more flex. Thinking hydro steering on the front is going to be the way to go. Never having messed with a hydro system I am clueless as to what I need/want for th system.

Gonna keep the stock yota axle for now. Only going to be running 35's at the largest.

Cylinder is needed but what length stroke?
Orbital valve. What do I need/want for this?

Thanks
JT

[krawlin85toy]

try trail-gear, lowrangeoffroad, 4xinnovations, I know trail gear offera a full hydro and assist for toys. You can get it cheaper from lowrange and its still from TG. psc offers hydro also.and i'm sure ther are more.

[Jonesy]

Thanks for the info. I'll definitely check them out.

[flatlander757]

Check out the Hydro Steering Bible on Pirate... it's good stuff:

http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/PR-Hydro_Steering/index.html

If you can figure out your needs and how you want it to handle(turns lock to lock, etc), you can choose parts that fit your needs and save big money over any kinds of kits.

www.surpluscenter.com has cheap hydraulic rams that lots of trail-only guys commonly run without issue.

If it is NEVER driven on the street, then I would modify your stock pump, buy an orbital from PSC or somebody(quality orbitals are not that expensive compared to cheaper ones), and a Surplus Center ram. If you drive it on the street more than 25mph, then I'd spring for a good double ended ram from PSC with heims so there isn't as much/any slop in the steering.

[CJsOffRoad]

You can also buy dual action cylinders from surplus center. http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=9-6845&catname=hydraulic

[twiztedzuki]

yeah double ended rams are cool but do not react as fast as single ended if u plan on hitting anything at wot steering mite be to slo with double,

[Jonesy]

Cool. Thanks for all the info. I'll be piecing it together here shortly. Think the rear is getting linked asap though.

Truck is off road only, so a little slop won't kill me.

[flatlander757]

yeah double ended rams are cool but do not react as fast as single ended if u plan on hitting anything at wot steering mite be to slo with double,

That has nothing to do with it at all. You just have to size a DE cylinder differently than a SE cylinder because you have to account for the shaft being inside of a DE cylinder. The only advantage to a SE cylinder is mounting space. DE will be "balanced" left to right so it won't have more force when extending one way, and act quicker(but with less force) the opposite.

Read Billavista's article.

You can also buy dual action cylinders from surplus center. http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=9-6845&catname=hydraulic

Dual action just means it has pressure on both sides of the piston(can be powered both directions). A single action cylinder means it only powers one way, and it has to be manually forced to go back to it's previous position. That would be like a dual-post lift cylinder... it only has pressure when raising the lift, then you are basically releasing pressure so it can drop down because of the weight of the vehicle/lift forcing the fluid out of the cylinder.

Surplus does have dual ENDED rams though(which I guess is what you were trying to get at?)... but I was saying to go with PSC or similar for street driving not because of that, but because the cheap rams have CLEVISES vs heim joints.

But there are ways around that too, check out what this guy did to a cheap ram to make it accept heim joints... scroll down to post #370:

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=897274&highlight=ram+spidr&page=15

[CJsOffRoad]

I have a double ended ram from surplus center that accepts the same clevis ends that PSC sells for heims or you can screw 3/4" heims directly into the ram. I like the surplus center rams because they have mounting blocks welded to them. Don't have to worry about the clamps coming loose. The single ended tractor rams with the big clevis end will get slopply. If you plan on driving your rig on the road I would suggest calling PSC and getting a complete kit from them with a return to center orbital valve.

http://i958.photobucket.com/albums/ae64/cjcook2009/steeringram.jpg
That has nothing to do with it at all. You just have to size a DE cylinder differently than a SE cylinder because you have to account for the shaft being inside of a DE cylinder. The only advantage to a SE cylinder is mounting space. DE will be "balanced" left to right so it won't have more force when extending one way, and act quicker(but with less force) the opposite.

Read Billavista's article.



Dual action just means it has pressure on both sides of the piston(can be powered both directions). A single action cylinder means it only powers one way, and it has to be manually forced to go back to it's previous position. That would be like a dual-post lift cylinder... it only has pressure when raising the lift, then you are basically releasing pressure so it can drop down because of the weight of the vehicle/lift forcing the fluid out of the cylinder.

Surplus does have dual ENDED rams though(which I guess is what you were trying to get at?)... but I was saying to go with PSC or similar for street driving not because of that, but because the cheap rams have CLEVISES vs heim joints.

But there are ways around that too, check out what this guy did to a cheap ram to make it accept heim joints... scroll down to post #370:

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=897274&highlight=ram+spidr&page=15

[flatlander757]

I have a double ended ram from surplus center that accepts the same clevis ends that PSC sells for heims or you can screw 3/4" heims directly into the ram. I like the surplus center rams because they have mounting blocks welded to them. Don't have to worry about the clamps coming loose. The single ended tractor rams with the big clevis end will get slopply. If you plan on driving your rig on the road I would suggest calling PSC and getting a complete kit from them with a return to center orbital valve.

http://i958.photobucket.com/albums/ae64/cjcook2009/steeringram.jpg

Sweet, I'll keep that in mind:cool:

[Jonesy]

For the orbital valves how are they classified. I see that they have a cubic inch number associated with them. Is this the amount of fluid displaced per one revolution? How many turns do I want/need lock to lock?

[twiztedzuki]

That has nothing to do with it at all. You just have to size a DE cylinder differently than a SE cylinder because you have to account for the shaft being inside of a DE cylinder. The only advantage to a SE cylinder is mounting space. DE will be "balanced" left to right so it won't have more force when extending one way, and act quicker(but with less force) the opposite.

Read Billavista's article.



Dual action just means it has pressure on both sides of the piston(can be powered both directions). A single action cylinder means it only powers one way, and it has to be manually forced to go back to it's previous position. That would be like a dual-post lift cylinder... it only has pressure when raising the lift, then you are basically releasing pressure so it can drop down because of the weight of the vehicle/lift forcing the fluid out of the cylinder.

Surplus does have dual ENDED rams though(which I guess is what you were trying to get at?)... but I was saying to go with PSC or similar for street driving not because of that, but because the cheap rams have CLEVISES vs heim joints.

But there are ways around that too, check out what this guy did to a cheap ram to make it accept heim joints... scroll down to post #370:

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=897274&highlight=ram+spidr&page=15

nice def. of single and balanced rams but think we know that.

[flatlander757]

For the orbital valves how are they classified. I see that they have a cubic inch number associated with them. Is this the amount of fluid displaced per one revolution? How many turns do I want/need lock to lock?

Depends on how much fluid your pump puts out and how large the ram is.

Read Billavista's article ;)

[yellowjacket]

nice def. of single and balanced rams but think we know that.

:rolleyes:

[twiztedzuki]

i was waiting on why i wrong about rams not what they are. i going on what southern hillclimbers tell so just wanting answer

[flatlander757]

i was waiting on why i wrong about rams not what they are. i going on what southern hillclimbers tell so just wanting answer

Because single vs double ended rams have NOTHING to do with overall steering speed being "slow." The only difference is a double ended ram has the same force/speed going both directions.

The only reason I posted the lengthy definition was because somebody said to get a "dual action cylinder" which just means it moves in both directions... which IS what you want... but that can still be single or double ended.

Hell, I could put a double ended 1.5x8" ram with a 5/8" shaft and run it as an ASSIST cylinder... and it would be the exact same force/speed as my current 1.5x8" single ended ram with a 5/8" shaft when CONTRACTING... only difference is the single ended ram has MORE FORCE when extending, and requires more fluid extending(due to lack of rod inside the cylinder which takes away from effective piston area)... it is slower extending vs contracting.

I'm pulling these numbers from my ass, but I think I could run a 1.75x8" double ended ram with a 3/4" shaft and it would be pretty damn close to the force and speed of my current ram when extending.

[cheapthrills49]

ive got a 2"x8" with a 1" shaft and i was told by a hydro mech./guru i know, that it will push and pull faster than a .75 di. shaft.....so r u sayin this is wrong

[flatlander757]

ive got a 2"x8" with a 1" shaft and i was told by a hydro mech./guru i know, that it will push and pull faster than a .75 di. shaft.....so r u sayin this is wrong

It will be faster because it requires less fluid volume to fill(so a slower PS pump should keep up)... but it will have less force because there is less piston area.

If it's double ended it will be like that in both directions.

If it's single ended it will be significantly weaker contracting vs extending... but you may find it won't turn as fast as you can when the ram is extending since it's got significantly more piston area(and fluid volume necessary) to fill the cylinder up.

[jwend]

:popcorn: :thumbup:

[flatlander757]

R E A D !

http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/PR-Hydro_Steering/index1.html

[jwend]

jonesy,, I just did hydro assist from burden on my jeep. if you want hydro assist i have the parts list etc you need.. if you want full hydro on the cheap i have that list too.. but i would buy a psc set up.. you dont save much by cheap piecing it and can be a good amount of work. I like to have all the stuff i need in one shot. Pm me if you want the list.... dont worry about all the tech bs use what worx for people you know it worked for.

[Jonesy]

ive got a 2"x8" with a 1" shaft and i was told by a hydro mech./guru i know, that it will push and pull faster than a .75 di. shaft.....so r u sayin this is wrong

This is correct. With a larger shaft there is smaller volume of liquid to be moved. But with a larger shaft you also reduce your force since that is dependent on the surface area of the piston that it has to push against.

After skimming the pirate article and a few other sources I'm still trying to decide what I want vs. how much I want to spend. Might just do a a single ended cylinder for now, and upgrade to the double ended later on.

[Jonesy]

jonesy,, I just did hydro assist from burden on my jeep. if you want hydro assist i have the parts list etc you need.. if you want full hydro on the cheap i have that list too.. but i would buy a psc set up.. you dont save much by cheap piecing it and can be a good amount of work. I like to have all the stuff i need in one shot. Pm me if you want the list.... dont worry about all the tech bs use what worx for people you know it worked for.

Thanks for the honest assessment. Kinda what I was finding out. I could skimp here and there to save a couple bucks, or just order the kit and be done with it. If you have the list send it my way.

[twiztedzuki]

completly understand what ur saying about fluid. imagine everything the same except ram, i have been told by many single is faster than double ended, why would that be, or r they on crack

[underpowered]

completly understand what ur saying about fluid. imagine everything the same except ram, i have been told by many single is faster than double ended, why would that be, or r they on crack

in theory double should be faster than single any day but with less power.

The rod partially fills the working area of the piston adn chamber so it will fill with fluid, and it is the same either way on a double ended cylinder, therefor conidering the same pump flow rating, should be faster.

as to why a single would be faster? maybe it is the difference in pump, or style of cylinder used.

[flatlander757]

completly understand what ur saying about fluid. imagine everything the same except ram, i have been told by many single is faster than double ended, why would that be, or r they on crack

Probably just has to do with what sizes they are using... You can have a SE cylinder that is faster than a DE cylinder of similar size in one direction... but slower than that cylinder in the other direction.

I also think part of it is that people see "2.5 dia ram" and think "OMG that's too big!" but the fact is, it has a very large 1.5" dia rod which takes up 34% of that piston's area(in both directions). So in reality that is like the non-rod side of a 2.0" single ended cylinder... But that same 2.0" SE cylinder will have a shaft on the opposite side... in PSC's case it is 1.125" dia shaft... which actually takes away 30% of the power from the shaft-side of the ram(when contracting).


In a nutshell... get a badass pump(don't skimp here), get an orbital that will give you the correct turns lock to lock based on what you want vs ram size vs pump output, and the ram you can probably go cheap on... just size it correctly! If it stays sealed it will work:beers:

[twiztedzuki]

makes sense they also tell me krc is there favorite pump for aetna style buggys do to the high rpm nature! my psc pumps whine loud at wot and it was kit from psc. figured pump and orbital would have more to do with how fast steering is than ram

[underpowered]

makes sense they also tell me krc is there favorite pump for aetna style buggys do to the high rpm nature! my psc pumps whine loud at wot and it was kit from psc. figured pump and orbital would have more to do with how fast steering is than ram

correct. the ram simply works off how fast you can fill it with fluid. if you have a high GPH pump, then even with a larger cylinder you can have quick steering.