buggy will not start - Page 2

carwash · 02-26-2007, 01:41 PM

it's probably your ignition switch, prolly easily and cheaply had, im sure it was used across many models.

94Dodge Truggy · 02-26-2007, 01:53 PM

Where in the hell do ya think they would put that switch? Never had to replace one. Could be the 1st ever.

94Dodge Truggy · 02-26-2007, 06:47 PM

No spark and no power being sent to fuel pump, but will crank all day.

KargoMaster · 02-27-2007, 12:32 PM

Yuk, I hate electrical problems...
I guess that's part of my aversion to EFI for mine...

PROPANE BABY!!

JasonCJ7 · 03-04-2007, 03:06 PM

When I had smilar problems with my CJ it ended up being a short in the wiring to the fuse block. I direct wired my coil to my power switch and my fuel pump is mechanical not electrical.

Mike F · 03-08-2007, 07:11 PM

Looking at the diagrams for a 94 it does look like it could be the ignition switch. The blue wire that goes to the fuel pump relay coil is also the power wire for the computer (seperate blue wire from a spliced connection).

Check for 12v + with the key on at the relay, if no power it could also be a fuse before or after the ignition switch.

Wire diagrams at www.autozone.com http://www.autozone.com/servlet/UiBr...3d80113bc2.jsp

diaram fig 28

94Dodge Truggy · 03-08-2007, 08:51 PM

Hey mike, I see you also have a fuelie 360. I replaced the ignition switch, coil, computer, crank sensor, fuses, relays, cam sensor, neutral safety switch etc... I do have power through the blue wire going to the fuel pump and the automatic shutdown relay. The computer is feeding 2.8 volts to most of the sensors. Before I burn the truggy, I think I am going to take it to j & n. They are in woodlawn near cincinnati and are confident that they can figure it out and help me simplify the wiring. Thanks alot for the info.

Mike F · 03-08-2007, 09:37 PM

They can probably hook into the computer and see what is going on.

Looks like you hit all the obvious potential problem parts. Hope it is not something expensive to fix, it looks like you have spent enough money on it.

It will be interesting to find out what the problem is. I have never worked with Chrysler EFI.

Well I have a AMC 360 with GM TBI on it that I installed and programed not the Dodge 360. I have also helped a few guys with MV4W fuel inject thier Jeeps.

Good Luck
Mike

KargoMaster · 03-09-2007, 07:58 AM

EFI AMC 360 sounds nice... I ended up going to Propane for the AMC 360 in my build... that's if I ever get to work on it... :(

94Dodge Truggy · 03-09-2007, 08:09 AM

Man, kargojack! I believe you are the hijacker

;)

03-10-2007, 09:19 AM

Did you get it figured out (why the fuel pump won't cycle) yet?

94Dodge Truggy · 03-10-2007, 09:55 AM

Still broke. Fuel pump will not cycle due to a fault for the automatic shutdown relay I believe.

KargoMaster · 03-10-2007, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 94Dodge Truggy

Man, kargojack! I believe you are the hijacker

;)

At least I know the difference between an AMC and a Chrysler 360!!

You end up taking it to someone else, or are you still banging your head against the concrete...?

94Dodge Truggy · 03-11-2007, 07:21 PM

what do you mean amc/chrysler 360? Buggy may be going to the shop this week to jn. I am kicking around a 4bt cummins. Had the boat out today on brookville lake.

KargoMaster · 03-12-2007, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 94Dodge Truggy

what do you mean amc/chrysler 360?

Hrmmm.... maybe I've mis-interpreted...

Your FIRST post in this thread...

Quote:

Originally Posted by 94Dodge Truggy

...my truck is a 360 auto...

A few back...

Quote:

Originally Posted by 94Dodge Truggy

Hey mike, I see you also have a fuelie 360...

Isn't one a Chrysler 360 and the other an AMC 360?

I may have 'jacked Jack's thread, but I know that these are not the same engine... that's all I was saying...

You get a temp on the water? Few years ago I went (without a wet/drysuit) in about 40 degrees in Brookville in March... Wow, that'll give the ol' system a shock! I beleive the first and only time that I've felt compelled to open the engine bay and climb in for warmth!

sarge · 03-12-2007, 01:22 AM

Just a random thought ! I seems to have a lot of those on these slow , cold midnights ....... My 94 Grand Cherokee had the 318 FI and it had it's fair share of electrical problems .... One was that the factory anti-theft would set it's self from time to time ( and when the battery was unhooked or dead ) and it would not start . I had to unlock it from the drivers door with the key to disable the anti theft crap!!!!
Now I know you don't have doors ( or much of body left ) so this might be a problem but it might be a cause :confused: :confused: :confused: I know it's a different vehicle but they're cousins .

mike shelton · 03-12-2007, 07:07 AM

dodge fuel pump get thier fire from the dist i think. no spark no pump. slap another dist in it before you send it to someone to just throw cash at. gabby

Mike F · 03-12-2007, 08:12 PM

Looks like autozone mixed up the wire diagrams.

Diagram fig. 29 shows the 94 v8 not a 4cyl as in fig. 28 that should be the V8.

In the diagram no connection is shown to the dist. so I would think the signal would come from the crank sensor for spark. Does the dist. have any kind of pickup in it? A lot of EFI sytems do look for a signal from the dist. and like Shelton said will not do any thing with out it.

I do not have a chrysler book, is 2.8v the correct signal voltage? I thougt a lot of the systems used 5v. Can the position sensors be tested possibly? On a way out thought, is the motor turning over fast enough to get a good signal from the sensors? Do you have a solid 12v to the computer while cranking? The computer may not turn on if it does not have close to 12v. How about computer/sensor grounds, one could have been toasted if it tried to carry welding voltage for some reason like connecting the welder ground to the frame and welding on the body. Is the computer plug actually making a connection with the computer on all terminals?

A lot of thoughts, maybe some help maybe not. ;)

94Dodge Truggy · 03-12-2007, 10:15 PM

I have been able to fool the computer by grounding the black with tan or pink wire and running a hot wire to the coil. But when the motor warms up after a few minutes it runs like poo at idle and eventually stalls out. I replaced the crank sensor and pickup sensor in the distributor also. I will do more checks on the correct signal voltage and make sure the continuity between sensors and computer are good.

Mike F · 03-13-2007, 10:50 PM

In the diagram two wires are black/tan pins 11 & 12. The diagram does not show what they do, they may be grounds. If you only grounded one you may need to ground the other. Running hot to the coil looks to bypass the auto shutdown relay that may not be getting the ground signal from the computer due to a bad ground on the other black/tan wire possibly? The fuel pump relay gets the same ground so if it is working now why is the shut down relay not working?

The motor running bad could be one of the temp sensors, IAC, MAP, or a vacuum leak. Hard to tell.

94Dodge Truggy · 03-14-2007, 07:16 AM

I like your ground idea. I am going to try that after work tonight!

blazerbrad · 03-14-2007, 10:05 AM

Have you hooked up a diagnostic tool yet? Do you have the capability to do this (i.e. is the diagnostic port installed)?

Please don't take this personally, but you are wasting a lot of time and money throwing random parts at the engine and hoping you get lucky.

Anyway, here are a few places to start. This is assuming the ASD relay is good.

**NOTE: take a good look at any connectors you unhook for bent pins, loose wires/broken wires, dirt, or green crud (corrosion), my guess is this will the be the ultimate cause of the problem.

1. actuate ASD (we usually do it with the DRB tool but I believe turning the key on will do it also, but remember that I believe it will only give power to the fuel pump for a few seconds upon initial key-on)
2. touch fuel pump relay (located in the power distribution center...big fuse box), it should pulsate when you first turn the key on
2a. yes - turn ignition off, disconnect FP relay, (diagnostic procedure does not say to turn ignition back on???), probe cavity D on the PDC (location where the relay was), is voltage above 10 V?
2b. no - disconnect FP relay, turn ignition on, probe cavity A on the PDC (location where the relay was), is voltage above 10 V?

Also, while the FP relay is out check the resistance between pins 85 and 86. The resistance should be below 100 ohms. If not, the relay is probably bad.

This is further down the chart, but it would probably we worth it to do a visual inspection of the fuel pump harness connector (it's a 5 pin flat style connector, but can't remember exactly where it is).

If you get a chance do these procedures and see what the results are, then we can go from there.

94Dodge Truggy · 03-14-2007, 10:19 AM

diagnostic port was eliminated a year ago along with the interior fuse panel. The fuse and relay box is still connected.

blazerbrad · 03-14-2007, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 94Dodge Truggy

diagnostic port was eliminated a year ago along with the interior fuse panel. The fuse and relay box is still connected.

Getting rid of the diagnostic port just made it about 10 times harder to figure out a problem like this, but I guess that's a moot point now.

Couple of other things I forgot to mention.

Make sure you have at least 10V at the battery!

You can also do a quick check of the ASD relay the same way was the FP relay. Check to see if it's clicking when you key-on. If not, pull the relay and check the resistance between 85 and 86. Then probe cavity A on the PDC for voltage.

94Dodge Truggy · 03-14-2007, 03:16 PM

Choosing to get rid of the diagnostic port eliminated 70 percent of the wires. I thought it would be easier to troubleshoot with less wires. That may have been a bad idea! Both the fuel pump relay and the asd relay do not click at all unless I fool the computer and run power to the coil and ground the black with brown wire and get the truck running.

02-26-2007, 01:41 PM	#26
carwash pimpin' IS easy Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Union, KY Posts: 3,344 Images: 605	it's probably your ignition switch, prolly easily and cheaply had, im sure it was used across many models. __________________

02-27-2007, 12:32 PM	#29
KargoMaster Cleaning off the rust... Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 1,009	Yuk, I hate electrical problems... I guess that's part of my aversion to EFI for mine... PROPANE BABY!! __________________ brad 5.0L \| 435 \| 203 \| 300 \| 4.10 \| 39.5 Buildup BACK underway...

03-04-2007, 03:06 PM	#30
JasonCJ7 Throttle Jockey Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Liberty Twp., Ohio Posts: 182	Electrical problems When I had smilar problems with my CJ it ended up being a short in the wiring to the fuse block. I direct wired my coil to my power switch and my fuel pump is mechanical not electrical. __________________ 78 CJ-7, 350 V8, T-18a Tranny, Twin Stick Dana 300, Scout 44's, 4.27 Gears, 36" TSL's, Welded rear and Full Spool Front, Hi-Steer with GM Knuckles

03-08-2007, 07:11 PM	#31
Mike F EFI AMC 360 Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Lebanon, OH Posts: 32	Looking at the diagrams for a 94 it does look like it could be the ignition switch. The blue wire that goes to the fuel pump relay coil is also the power wire for the computer (seperate blue wire from a spliced connection). Check for 12v + with the key on at the relay, if no power it could also be a fuse before or after the ignition switch. Wire diagrams at www.autozone.com http://www.autozone.com/servlet/UiBr...3d80113bc2.jsp diaram fig 28 __________________ 89 YJ EFI AMC 360, T18a, D20, built D44, 14 bolt, 38" Creepy Crawlers. Last edited by Mike F; 03-08-2007 at 07:14 PM. Reason: more info

03-08-2007, 09:37 PM	#33
Mike F EFI AMC 360 Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Lebanon, OH Posts: 32	They can probably hook into the computer and see what is going on. Looks like you hit all the obvious potential problem parts. Hope it is not something expensive to fix, it looks like you have spent enough money on it. It will be interesting to find out what the problem is. I have never worked with Chrysler EFI. Well I have a AMC 360 with GM TBI on it that I installed and programed not the Dodge 360. I have also helped a few guys with MV4W fuel inject thier Jeeps. Good Luck Mike __________________ 89 YJ EFI AMC 360, T18a, D20, built D44, 14 bolt, 38" Creepy Crawlers.

02-26-2007, 01:53 PM	#27
94Dodge Truggy EX-Vice President Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Fairfield, Ohio Posts: 3,048	Where in the hell do ya think they would put that switch? Never had to replace one. Could be the 1st ever.

02-26-2007, 06:47 PM	#28
94Dodge Truggy EX-Vice President Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Fairfield, Ohio Posts: 3,048	No spark and no power being sent to fuel pump, but will crank all day.

03-08-2007, 08:51 PM	#32
94Dodge Truggy EX-Vice President Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Fairfield, Ohio Posts: 3,048	Hey mike, I see you also have a fuelie 360. I replaced the ignition switch, coil, computer, crank sensor, fuses, relays, cam sensor, neutral safety switch etc... I do have power through the blue wire going to the fuel pump and the automatic shutdown relay. The computer is feeding 2.8 volts to most of the sensors. Before I burn the truggy, I think I am going to take it to j & n. They are in woodlawn near cincinnati and are confident that they can figure it out and help me simplify the wiring. Thanks alot for the info.

03-09-2007, 07:58 AM	#34
KargoMaster Cleaning off the rust... Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 1,009	EFI AMC 360 sounds nice... I ended up going to Propane for the AMC 360 in my build... that's if I ever get to work on it... :( __________________ brad 5.0L \| 435 \| 203 \| 300 \| 4.10 \| 39.5 Buildup BACK underway...

03-09-2007, 08:09 AM	#35
94Dodge Truggy EX-Vice President Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Fairfield, Ohio Posts: 3,048	Man, kargojack! I believe you are the hijacker ;)

03-10-2007, 09:19 AM	#36
AKToy Guest Posts: n/a	Did you get it figured out (why the fuel pump won't cycle) yet?

03-10-2007, 09:55 AM	#37
94Dodge Truggy EX-Vice President Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Fairfield, Ohio Posts: 3,048	Still broke. Fuel pump will not cycle due to a fault for the automatic shutdown relay I believe.

03-11-2007, 07:21 PM	#39
94Dodge Truggy EX-Vice President Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Fairfield, Ohio Posts: 3,048	what do you mean amc/chrysler 360? Buggy may be going to the shop this week to jn. I am kicking around a 4bt cummins. Had the boat out today on brookville lake.

03-12-2007, 01:22 AM	#41
sarge Pure Bacon Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Trenton, Oh Posts: 1,098	Just a random thought ! I seems to have a lot of those on these slow , cold midnights ....... My 94 Grand Cherokee had the 318 FI and it had it's fair share of electrical problems .... One was that the factory anti-theft would set it's self from time to time ( and when the battery was unhooked or dead ) and it would not start . I had to unlock it from the drivers door with the key to disable the anti theft crap!!!! Now I know you don't have doors ( or much of body left ) so this might be a problem but it might be a cause :confused: :confused: :confused: I know it's a different vehicle but they're cousins .

03-12-2007, 07:07 AM	#42
mike shelton Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: waco ky Posts: 211	dist dodge fuel pump get thier fire from the dist i think. no spark no pump. slap another dist in it before you send it to someone to just throw cash at. gabby

03-12-2007, 08:12 PM	#43
Mike F EFI AMC 360 Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Lebanon, OH Posts: 32	Looks like autozone mixed up the wire diagrams. Diagram fig. 29 shows the 94 v8 not a 4cyl as in fig. 28 that should be the V8. In the diagram no connection is shown to the dist. so I would think the signal would come from the crank sensor for spark. Does the dist. have any kind of pickup in it? A lot of EFI sytems do look for a signal from the dist. and like Shelton said will not do any thing with out it. I do not have a chrysler book, is 2.8v the correct signal voltage? I thougt a lot of the systems used 5v. Can the position sensors be tested possibly? On a way out thought, is the motor turning over fast enough to get a good signal from the sensors? Do you have a solid 12v to the computer while cranking? The computer may not turn on if it does not have close to 12v. How about computer/sensor grounds, one could have been toasted if it tried to carry welding voltage for some reason like connecting the welder ground to the frame and welding on the body. Is the computer plug actually making a connection with the computer on all terminals? A lot of thoughts, maybe some help maybe not. ;) __________________ 89 YJ EFI AMC 360, T18a, D20, built D44, 14 bolt, 38" Creepy Crawlers.

03-12-2007, 10:15 PM	#44
94Dodge Truggy EX-Vice President Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Fairfield, Ohio Posts: 3,048	I have been able to fool the computer by grounding the black with tan or pink wire and running a hot wire to the coil. But when the motor warms up after a few minutes it runs like poo at idle and eventually stalls out. I replaced the crank sensor and pickup sensor in the distributor also. I will do more checks on the correct signal voltage and make sure the continuity between sensors and computer are good.

03-13-2007, 10:50 PM	#45
Mike F EFI AMC 360 Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Lebanon, OH Posts: 32	In the diagram two wires are black/tan pins 11 & 12. The diagram does not show what they do, they may be grounds. If you only grounded one you may need to ground the other. Running hot to the coil looks to bypass the auto shutdown relay that may not be getting the ground signal from the computer due to a bad ground on the other black/tan wire possibly? The fuel pump relay gets the same ground so if it is working now why is the shut down relay not working? The motor running bad could be one of the temp sensors, IAC, MAP, or a vacuum leak. Hard to tell. __________________ 89 YJ EFI AMC 360, T18a, D20, built D44, 14 bolt, 38" Creepy Crawlers.

03-14-2007, 07:16 AM	#46
94Dodge Truggy EX-Vice President Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Fairfield, Ohio Posts: 3,048	I like your ground idea. I am going to try that after work tonight!

03-14-2007, 10:05 AM	#47
blazerbrad - CORE Member - Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 831 Images: 6	Have you hooked up a diagnostic tool yet? Do you have the capability to do this (i.e. is the diagnostic port installed)? Please don't take this personally, but you are wasting a lot of time and money throwing random parts at the engine and hoping you get lucky. Anyway, here are a few places to start. This is assuming the ASD relay is good. **NOTE: take a good look at any connectors you unhook for bent pins, loose wires/broken wires, dirt, or green crud (corrosion), my guess is this will the be the ultimate cause of the problem. 1. actuate ASD (we usually do it with the DRB tool but I believe turning the key on will do it also, but remember that I believe it will only give power to the fuel pump for a few seconds upon initial key-on) 2. touch fuel pump relay (located in the power distribution center...big fuse box), it should pulsate when you first turn the key on 2a. yes - turn ignition off, disconnect FP relay, (diagnostic procedure does not say to turn ignition back on???), probe cavity D on the PDC (location where the relay was), is voltage above 10 V? 2b. no - disconnect FP relay, turn ignition on, probe cavity A on the PDC (location where the relay was), is voltage above 10 V? Also, while the FP relay is out check the resistance between pins 85 and 86. The resistance should be below 100 ohms. If not, the relay is probably bad. This is further down the chart, but it would probably we worth it to do a visual inspection of the fuel pump harness connector (it's a 5 pin flat style connector, but can't remember exactly where it is). If you get a chance do these procedures and see what the results are, then we can go from there.

03-14-2007, 10:19 AM	#48
94Dodge Truggy EX-Vice President Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Fairfield, Ohio Posts: 3,048	diagnostic port was eliminated a year ago along with the interior fuse panel. The fuse and relay box is still connected.

03-14-2007, 03:16 PM	#50
94Dodge Truggy EX-Vice President Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Fairfield, Ohio Posts: 3,048	Choosing to get rid of the diagnostic port eliminated 70 percent of the wires. I thought it would be easier to troubleshoot with less wires. That may have been a bad idea! Both the fuel pump relay and the asd relay do not click at all unless I fool the computer and run power to the coil and ground the black with brown wire and get the truck running.