Catsle law???

[Nuts]

If I'm working in my detached garage and someone breaks in while I'm in there and I shoot them is it self defense? I read a ton of info in the Ohio revised code and found out about your home,temporary home, and car but nothing about a garage. Not sure if there are any lawyers on here but maybe someone could point me in the right direction. I'm asking because my garage has been broken into twice in the last month, the last time was just minutes after I went in. Its getting kind of nerv racking being out there at night not knowing if someone is coming in or not...

[tinbeater]

Originally Posted by Nuts

If I'm working in my detached garage and someone breaks in while I'm in there and I shoot them is it self defense?

I would think if they was going to harm you.
But ????

[JET455]

If they are armed yes! if not no! So just throw a weapon on them if you kill them! and make sure they are dead so you do not have to deal with it all later. Like them sueing you for being dumb enough for breaking into your place and you protecting yourself......

[mossyoaktj]

hmmm..i always figured as long as they didnt make it out the door then its ok as long as ur life was in danger or if u had some sort of no trespassing sign. just my .02

[TomH]

And the answers you get here will influence a shoot/don't shoot decision in real life?

Yeah, right.

[Flxratd]

just make sure you dont shoot them in the back because they feel the threat is over if they are leaving. the curent justice system seems to protect the criminal as far as rights are concerned.

[Hope Springs Hauler]

That is a good question to pose in my ccw class in a couple of weeks. We'll see what the officers have to say

[Nuts]

Originally Posted by TomH

And the answers you get here will influence a shoot/don't shoot decision in real life?

Yeah, right.

lol no, I wasn't really looking for a yes or no, just a push in the right direction to fine out.

Originally Posted by Hope Springs Hauler

That is a good question to pose in my ccw class in a couple of weeks. We'll see what the officers have to say

Ask them and let me know what they say!

[99Slobra]

If its anything like Florida's Castle law:

One: It establishes, in law, the presumption that a criminal who forcibly enters or intrudes into your home or occupied vehicle is there to cause death or great bodily harm, therefore a person may use any manner of force, including deadly force, against that person.

Two: It removes the "duty to retreat" if you are attacked in any place you have a right to be. You no longer have to turn your back on a criminal and try to run when attacked. Instead, you may stand your ground and fight back, meeting force with force, including deadly force, if you reasonably believe it is necessary to prevent death or great bodily harm to yourself or others. [This is an American right repeatedly recognized in Supreme Court gun cases.]

Three: It provides that persons using force authorized by law shall not be prosecuted for using such force.

[WrenchMonkey]

When you're confronted by a criminal, you don't have the luxury of time. Under the ‘Castle Doctrine’ provision, if someone breaks into your occupied home or temporary habitation, or your occupied car, you now have an initial presumption that you may act in self defense and you will not be second-guessed by the State.

The bottom line is that you may defend your life, or the life of another in your residence or vehicle, and have no duty to retreat before using deadly force against an attacker or invader. A criminal may not successfully sue you for damages he sustained while committing a felony or a violent misdemeanor, including injuries sustained as a result of your intentional acts (shooting him) while engaged in self-defense.

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/5753
http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/5758/

Robert

[Hope Springs Hauler]

I think the rub here is the exacting language used. Does "home" include a detached garage. All of the citations in this thread say home, house, residence, vehicle, etc. Point 2 of florida's verbage does have the caveat of "if you are attacked in any place you have a right to be."

[TomH]

Originally Posted by Nuts

If I'm working in my detached garage and someone breaks in while I'm in there .

Originally Posted by Hope Springs Hauler

Does "home" include a detached garage.

I appreciate that there is no such thing as a stupid question, but, c'mon...


History is written by the survivors, if you get what I'm sayin'

[Nuts]

Originally Posted by WrenchMonkey

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/5753
http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/5758/

Robert

I've read through all those and I'm wondering a garage counts as a "temporary habitation"

[Hope Springs Hauler]

Originally Posted by TomH

I appreciate that there is no such thing as a stupid question, but, c'mon...


History is written by the survivors, if you get what I'm sayin'

I appreciate what you're saying, but I'm talkin' about lawyers here. They get off on details like this. At the very least, to know that you're alive is great but you may or may not be facing severe civil penalties because the castle doctrine does or doesn't apply. If the castle doctrine doesn't apply, I'd say a 3ft stick of DOM to the side of the head would be just as effective and much less prosecuteable.

My dearest wish is that we find court interpretations that define "home" to be the main residence and any secured outbuildings. The less thoughts you have rushing through your mind, the better.

BTW, have any of you actually had to pull a gun on someone? It ain't a John Wayne type feeling like you think it would be. Understand that.

[TomH]

Originally Posted by Hope Springs Hauler

I appreciate what you're saying, but I'm talkin' about lawyers here. They get off on details like this. At the very least, to know that you're alive is great but you may or may not be facing severe civil penalties because the castle doctrine does or doesn't apply. If the castle doctrine doesn't apply, I'd say a 3ft stick of DOM to the side of the head would be just as effective and much less prosecuteable.

My dearest wish is that we find court interpretations that define "home" to be the main residence and any secured outbuildings. The less thoughts you have rushing through your mind, the better.

BTW, have any of you actually had to pull a gun on someone? It ain't a John Wayne type feeling like you think it would be. Understand that.

If you've ever been in a shoot/don't shoot situation then you would appreciate that what the court might or might not say is irrelevant. (i.e. Take your chances with a jury versus an armed intruder.) But then again, I suppose YOUR best move might be to use one of your "Lifeline" calls to get an answer; hope your cell is close by.

[Hope Springs Hauler]

Originally Posted by TomH

If you've ever been in a shoot/don't shoot situation then you would appreciate that what the court might or might not say is irrelevant. (i.e. Take your chances with a jury versus an armed intruder.) But then again, I suppose YOUR best move might be to use one of your "Lifeline" calls to get an answer; hope your cell is close by.

Try answering the question before posing your own. ;) So are you saying you HAVE had to pull a gun on someone? Unless the answer is yes, I've got you on this one as I have held an intruder on the ground, gun in his face until the cop arrived AND resisted the temptation to end another's life. He broke in the back door of my house.

(The bittersweet conclusion to the story was that the cop lost the guy on the way to the car Great Lexington PD)

Your belief that the judge or jury's opinion is completely irrelevant had better be backed up by DEEP pockets. It ain't a criminal case I'm worried about; it's the stinking civil case that bothers me. You are also assuming that the intruder IS armed....etc. There are a lot of "if's" to any situation and you seem to be assuming that actually using deadly force is the correct answer immediately instead of taking a split second, assessing the situation and making a decision. I just hope a friend or family member doesn't drop in on you, you kill them and then you have to live with that regret because you didn't pause to assess the situation.

[WrenchMonkey]

Originally Posted by Nuts

I've read through all those and I'm wondering a garage counts as a "temporary habitation"

Well, technically, I'd say no.

The law specifically names residences and vehicles. But by the definitions in ORC 2901.05-D:

(2) “Dwelling” means a building or conveyance of any kind that has a roof over it and that is designed to be occupied by people lodging in the building or conveyance at night, regardless of whether the building or conveyance is temporary or permanent or is mobile or immobile. As used in this division, a building or conveyance includes, but is not limited to, an attached porch, and a building or conveyance with a roof over it includes, but is not limited to, a tent.
(3) “Residence” means a dwelling in which a person resides either temporarily or permanently or is visiting as a guest.
(4) “Vehicle” means a conveyance of any kind, whether or not motorized, that is designed to transport people or property.

I'd say a garage would qualify as a "dwelling," not a "residence," and thus not be covered under the Castle Law.


That said, I think it'd take a pretty lousy lawyer (but I repeat myself) to lose that case for you.

Robert

[thefuzz]

Ok any ocupied struture can be a garage, outhouse, anything that is ocupied by human life ant any times... just as a camper or motorhome is considered a home if it is ocupied at times ..as for shooting someone and placing a weapon on them or around them i advise you NOT TO you'll get in more trouble for tampering with the crime scene then the shooting.. keep in mind if you alwayse shoot to STOP THE THREAT!! never say shoot to kill if the subject dies o well if they car reserect him to get a statment from him that says he did not mean any harm to you then go for it..

active law enforcment for over 14 years now >>> and a OHIO peace officer certified firearms instructor for the state..

[TomH]

Originally Posted by Hope Springs Hauler

Try answering the question before posing your own. ;) So are you saying you HAVE had to pull a gun on someone? Unless the answer is yes, I've got you on this one as I have held an intruder on the ground, gun in his face until the cop arrived AND resisted the temptation to end another's life. He broke in the back door of my house.

(The bittersweet conclusion to the story was that the cop lost the guy on the way to the car Great Lexington PD)

Your belief that the judge or jury's opinion is completely irrelevant had better be backed up by DEEP pockets. It ain't a criminal case I'm worried about; it's the stinking civil case that bothers me. You are also assuming that the intruder IS armed....etc. There are a lot of "if's" to any situation and you seem to be assuming that actually using deadly force is the correct answer immediately instead of taking a split second, assessing the situation and making a decision. I just hope a friend or family member doesn't drop in on you, you kill them and then you have to live with that regret because you didn't pause to assess the situation.

I sure fell for that one. (i.e. The excuse to inject that stirring tale of your hand gun heroics.) Well, fact of the matter is that I have pulled a gun in self defense after someone broke into our house, but the outcome was nowhere near as dramatic. He fled before I could hold him down and put a gun in his face.

PS,
Thanks for the self-righteous firearm and legal liability lecture, (The "split second, assessing the situation and making a decision" verbiage was especially moving.) but you're about 30 years too late.

[Hope Springs Hauler]

Well, I guess you have just proved that you are SO much better than me
By your statements, you are a self-righteous prig that would be willing to shoot anyone (if they didn't run), then think about consequenses later. It must be awesome to live completely without fear of the abomination that is our legal system.

If you fell for anything, it was for the fact that you assume that people speak out of theory and not experience. Hand gun, or long gun, they are both deadly force. and you must have a sense of the gravity of their use before you take that responsibility. I'm going to leave this conversation before I say something that needs moderated.

Adam, I will let you know what this instructor says. Hopefully it mirrors what the instructor above has said (thefuzz).

[Nuts]

Originally Posted by Hope Springs Hauler

Adam, I will let you know what this instructor says. Hopefully it mirrors what the instructor above has said (thefuzz).

Thanks man,and for the record I'm not planning on shooting anyone! I was just wondering what would happen if the situation arose and wanted to find out anything I could about it.

[kb9qdi]

Good reading

[Waffle]

There will be a criminal investigation. Guaranteed! You would be deemed innocent only if you errr, *they* perceived that your life was in *imminent danger*. A man standing there with a knife in his hand is not a threat on life. Only if the man attacked you. Obviously your life is number 1 to you, but you also have to be able to survive our justice system. DA's can be rutheless and a cheap lawyer might leave you high and dry. Plant a knife. Ok....did you wipe your prints off? Are his prints on it? Does it match any other knives in your possession? Was it bought with a credit card where a reciept could link it to ya? Was it washed completely removing all traces of your dna? How about flower pollen linking it to your wife's flowers sitting on the counter. Or......it's so fawkin clean that the DA becomes suspicious saying the perp couldn't have had possession of it. Would you survive interogation without cracking under pressure?

[Waffle]

Oh, and don't expect to get all of the information you need from a CC class. Not going to happen. You need to do serious research with your state and local laws. Even then it could be you facing a jury. Don't forget that evidence in a crimal court is different than in civil court. Just ask OJ!

[Flxratd]

im going to watch csi this week so i can get the facts just trying to decide if i go with miami,new york or vegas. i personally dont own a gun and i dont care who does as long as its not pointed at me but being the son of a 28 year now retired police officer i can say that there is alot more to shooting a gun than just being able to pull the trigger.