Diesel question

itbrokeagain · 01-08-2015, 09:10 AM

So at -5 my truck did not want to start. The batteries were pretty low before it started. Between cranking and cycling the key I probably went through 5 glow plug cycles. I will not put thinner oil in it. Is a shot of ether safe to use on diesel?

JeffK5 · 01-08-2015, 09:36 AM

Manual glow plug controls?...if so the a little shot of starting fluid is fine. Just never ether with hot or on glowplugs..!

tbshakie · 01-08-2015, 09:41 AM

what truck do you have?

If the batteries are low, a diesel wont start. A diesel must hit a cetain RPM to fire. I learned the hard way about that a couple years ago.

Bear Chow · 01-08-2015, 09:41 AM

Ether is a drug, literally and figuratively. A single shot of ether is not going to harm anything. However; once you've taken the time to make sure you have it available it will become your go to cure. And the real issue will never be resolved.

As a go to method of starting the vehicle you will risk mushrooming your glow plugs and deteriorating multiple seals. Ether is also a solvent and should be treated as such.

I would say your root cause is one or more of your glow plugs are failing or already mushroomed. Consider a block heater and run winter fuel.

JeffK5 · 01-08-2015, 09:42 AM

Also..modern diesels have specific minium volatage requirements ..low batteries might not have the juice to turn the truck over and run the electronics.

Thinner oil does help.

itbrokeagain · 01-08-2015, 10:24 AM

The truck is a 95 7.3. Took about 10 minutes to get it running this morning. It is plugged in on a timer that comes on about 2 hrs before I need to leave. This morning was the first time I had to crank it enough that I noticed battery drain. The glow plugs are about 2 years old but I don't know the brand. I do not know if the glow plug relay was changed at that time. The batteries are 3 years old but the truck sat for a little over a year before I got it but it was started every few months. I got it in early august from a friend.
It tries to start almost immediately but doesnt. Usually I crank a while then cycle the glow plugs when it is really cold. It is my understanding that the hpop needs to build 500 psi to fire the injectors. My guess is all of my issues are oil related but I have a oil leak (that I plan on taking care of soon) so I don't want to go thinner. Anything above 50 it starts immediately.
Also while I'm cranking it blows tons of white smoke. As soon as it starts, it quits.
So the ether would only be in situations like this morning where it's too cold and won't start. It defiantly won't be a habit. I do know of a guy that was a Ford diesel mechanic that works out of his house now that I will have look at it probably in the next month or 2 for some other stuff and I will bring this up

WrenchMonkey · 01-08-2015, 12:10 PM

Can you bypass the heater timer on really cold nights like this? That 7.3 is a big honkin block. Once all that thermal mass is down below zero, it's hard work to get it warm again.

If you let the heater run all night, and keep it from getting that cold, I bet you'll be okay.

itbrokeagain · 01-08-2015, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WrenchMonkey

Can you bypass the heater timer on really cold nights like this? That 7.3 is a big honkin block. Once all that thermal mass is down below zero, it's hard work to get it warm again.

If you let the heater run all night, and keep it from getting that cold, I bet you'll be okay.

I will tonight. Not a bad idea. How was your truck when it got really cold?

WrenchMonkey · 01-08-2015, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by itbrokeagain

How was your truck when it got really cold?

Anytime below freezing I'd have to plug it in. No timer, just an extension cord from the garage.

The times I forgot (or didn't plan to drive it) and I tried to plug it in the next morning for a couple hours, it was definitely less effective.

As long as I plugged it in all night, and kept healthy batteries in it, it usually started pretty easy.

fordman00 · 01-08-2015, 06:13 PM

I had to jump my Cummins this morning (batteries are dead)and haven't started it in a few days. Fired right off and smoked like a semi lol. But to answer your question I wouldn't ever use ether,I've heard of guys melting positions,runaway engines, etc. I'm not saying doing it one time will hurt it but I wouldn't get in the habit as stated above. First things first though get your batteries tested,if their bad get them both replaced at the same time!if that doesn't help then you can start testing relays and plugs. Heck you can do the relay first. Can't remember how you check it though sorry.

I had a 99 powerstroke and I to had to plug it in or cycle the key 2-3 times in cold temperatures until I did some diagnostic and determined glow plugs weren't working properly.it you get to where you need glow plugs buy motorcraft only.

Nuts · 01-08-2015, 11:10 PM

WD40 is supposed to work and be easier on them if you have to spray.

blazerbrad · 01-09-2015, 08:50 AM

I've used starting fluid many times over the years, but also only use it as a last resort. Also make sure the glow plugs are disabled. On mine I can get under the hood and unplug the connector from the controller. Here are some lessons I have learned with owning an older diesel for 20 years.

- Cranking speed is extremely important and obviously directly tied to battery condition. I have actually replaced older batteries in my diesel because it was struggling to start in the cold, and then used these old batteries in other gas vehicles for a couple of years with no issues.

- Check glow plug conditions. On your truck it's probably pretty easy to run through and check the plugs.

- 2 hours with the block heater is not even close to long enough to be fully effective. I would leave it plugged in all night.

itbrokeagain · 01-09-2015, 02:23 PM

My truck cranked strong and fast this morning. I had the heater plugged in all night bit it was also a lot warmer this morning. I was told 2 hrs was all that was needed to heat it up. I guess not

blustroker · 01-10-2015, 03:20 PM

I have a 95 psd as well. Since your glowplugs aren't that old, if the relay is working as it should, first place I would look is the under valve cover harness. Fairly common issue. In some of the cheap (non motorcraft) replacement harnesses I've seen the wires for the glowplugs fail in just a few years. Only time my truck gets plugged in is when I know I am using it in the morning. Even at -3 the other morning, cycled glowplugs twice and she fired right up. She makes a lot of noise and smokes but starts. Glowplugs, relay, and harnesses are probably 5+ yrs old. Batteries are stickered 2007. If you use ether, disable the glowplugs as you can blow the tip off in the cylinder. I run 15-40w year round btw.

itbrokeagain · 01-10-2015, 04:45 PM

The valve cover gasket was replaced a few years but I don't know of Motorcraft was used. I am replacing them again soon though because they are leaking again and will be replaced with Motorcraft. My batteries are stickered 2012

itbrokeagain · 01-10-2015, 04:45 PM

So another question. Where is the glow plug relay?

blustroker · 01-10-2015, 05:01 PM

Top passenger side of the engine right next to the fuel filter bowl.

blustroker · 01-10-2015, 05:45 PM

Also, 2 small wires and 2 large on the relay. Obviously 2 large are power in/out. On the small wires, one gets 12v with ignition power, the other gets grounded by the pcm to turn it off/on. Power runs through fuse #22 under hood. This fuse is also for the fuel heater in the bowl. If it turns out your relay is bad, you can upgrade to a heavier duty relay cheap. You can get one at any local Western plow dealer. Part# 56131k-1. Should be around $15. Ford relay is $60. FYI.. I went through 2 ford relays in 4yrs. Still using the same western relay for the last 6. Looks the same as the ford also.

donaldcon · 01-10-2015, 06:12 PM

Started my 6.slow at 6am. Hasnt been started since Saturday. Not plugged in either One glow plug cycle. about 6 cranks, and fire. it would start 2 months ago at 40 degrees, with 3 year old batteries. Just replaced them last month and no issues yet.

blazerbrad · 01-11-2015, 11:05 AM

I went back and read the original post again....so the truck started at -5 degrees with only being plugged in for 2 hours. Seems like the only concern was that it took some extra cranking before it fired. To be honest it really doesn't sound like anything too serious.

A good point about not being able to plug it in at work and would be a concern if the truck wouldn't start if below 30 or 40 degrees, but again at -5 I'm not sure I would be too worried about it.

Just another thought and I'm not sure how a '95 7.3 is setup, but assuming it has some sort of cold start function that increases the idle and advances the timing? The timing advance solenoid helps cold starting and is controlled by a temperature sender, which is separate from the one controlling the engine temp gauge. Years ago when my stopped working it made cold starting more difficult.

underpowered · 01-11-2015, 08:39 PM

extra crank time that cold is not bad IMO. my 00 7.3 powerstroke will start without being plugged in down to about 0, once it goes negative it starts to get harder to start. as for glow plugs, you don't have to cycle them, the light goes off just to say it should start, but they will continue to stay on up to 2 minutes, even once the light goes off they are still actually on so just leave the key on for a bit longer and try to start instead of cycling it again.

itbrokeagain · 01-11-2015, 10:00 PM

I will look under my visor. I do not push the throttle. I think I need to check my gp relay. It's been too cold and I haven't been home the past few days

fordman00 · 01-11-2015, 11:31 PM

Never heard of giving it throttle. But if you Google how to check your glow plug relay it's fairly simple takes 5 min. I can't remember off the top of my head.

blustroker · 01-12-2015, 09:21 AM

Extra crank time is common when it's that cold if not plugged in. But the fact it was plugged in and still had to go through extra cranking says something is not working. Another thought being that our injectors are oil fired, could be bleeding oil past worn injector o-rings. Taking longer to build enough oil pressure to fire the injectors. Just a thought.

blazerbrad · 01-12-2015, 09:55 AM

On my '90 Chevy the user's manual states to hold the throttle down 1/2 way when starting in the cold.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the truck started at -5 degrees so obviously the batteries were not completely drained. It sounds like the truck was cranked enough to start noticing a decrease in battery performance, which really doesn't take very long on an engine like this at those temps.

01-08-2015, 09:10 AM	#1
itbrokeagain Just Empty Every Pocket - CORE Member - Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Amelia Posts: 1,435	Diesel question So at -5 my truck did not want to start. The batteries were pretty low before it started. Between cranking and cycling the key I probably went through 5 glow plug cycles. I will not put thinner oil in it. Is a shot of ether safe to use on diesel? __________________ 91 fj 80 on 37 Nitto Muds with a 10k winch. Cage and sliders coming soon.

01-08-2015, 09:41 AM	#3
tbshakie Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Circleville Ohio Posts: 61	what truck do you have? If the batteries are low, a diesel wont start. A diesel must hit a cetain RPM to fire. I learned the hard way about that a couple years ago. __________________ 1976 CJ 5 1984 CJ 7 1993 K3500 GMC 6.5 TD

01-08-2015, 10:24 AM	#6
itbrokeagain Just Empty Every Pocket - CORE Member - Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Amelia Posts: 1,435	The truck is a 95 7.3. Took about 10 minutes to get it running this morning. It is plugged in on a timer that comes on about 2 hrs before I need to leave. This morning was the first time I had to crank it enough that I noticed battery drain. The glow plugs are about 2 years old but I don't know the brand. I do not know if the glow plug relay was changed at that time. The batteries are 3 years old but the truck sat for a little over a year before I got it but it was started every few months. I got it in early august from a friend. It tries to start almost immediately but doesnt. Usually I crank a while then cycle the glow plugs when it is really cold. It is my understanding that the hpop needs to build 500 psi to fire the injectors. My guess is all of my issues are oil related but I have a oil leak (that I plan on taking care of soon) so I don't want to go thinner. Anything above 50 it starts immediately. Also while I'm cranking it blows tons of white smoke. As soon as it starts, it quits. So the ether would only be in situations like this morning where it's too cold and won't start. It defiantly won't be a habit. I do know of a guy that was a Ford diesel mechanic that works out of his house now that I will have look at it probably in the next month or 2 for some other stuff and I will bring this up __________________ 91 fj 80 on 37 Nitto Muds with a 10k winch. Cage and sliders coming soon.

01-08-2015, 12:10 PM	#7
WrenchMonkey Mechanical Animal - CORE Member - - Moderator - Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Beechmont Posts: 1,883	Can you bypass the heater timer on really cold nights like this? That 7.3 is a big honkin block. Once all that thermal mass is down below zero, it's hard work to get it warm again. If you let the heater run all night, and keep it from getting that cold, I bet you'll be okay. __________________ DIRTY DEEDS, DONE DIRT CHEAP Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stranger

01-09-2015, 02:23 PM	#13
itbrokeagain Just Empty Every Pocket - CORE Member - Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Amelia Posts: 1,435	My truck cranked strong and fast this morning. I had the heater plugged in all night bit it was also a lot warmer this morning. I was told 2 hrs was all that was needed to heat it up. I guess not __________________ 91 fj 80 on 37 Nitto Muds with a 10k winch. Cage and sliders coming soon.

01-08-2015, 09:36 AM	#2
JeffK5 Tiny Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Colerain Posts: 798	Manual glow plug controls?...if so the a little shot of starting fluid is fine. Just never ether with hot or on glowplugs..!

01-08-2015, 09:41 AM	#4
Bear Chow Jeepless Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Oxford, Oh Posts: 302	Ether is a drug, literally and figuratively. A single shot of ether is not going to harm anything. However; once you've taken the time to make sure you have it available it will become your go to cure. And the real issue will never be resolved. As a go to method of starting the vehicle you will risk mushrooming your glow plugs and deteriorating multiple seals. Ether is also a solvent and should be treated as such. I would say your root cause is one or more of your glow plugs are failing or already mushroomed. Consider a block heater and run winter fuel.

01-08-2015, 09:42 AM	#5
JeffK5 Tiny Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Colerain Posts: 798	Also..modern diesels have specific minium volatage requirements ..low batteries might not have the juice to turn the truck over and run the electronics. Thinner oil does help.

01-08-2015, 06:13 PM	#10
fordman00 Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 433	I had to jump my Cummins this morning (batteries are dead)and haven't started it in a few days. Fired right off and smoked like a semi lol. But to answer your question I wouldn't ever use ether,I've heard of guys melting positions,runaway engines, etc. I'm not saying doing it one time will hurt it but I wouldn't get in the habit as stated above. First things first though get your batteries tested,if their bad get them both replaced at the same time!if that doesn't help then you can start testing relays and plugs. Heck you can do the relay first. Can't remember how you check it though sorry. I had a 99 powerstroke and I to had to plug it in or cycle the key 2-3 times in cold temperatures until I did some diagnostic and determined glow plugs weren't working properly.it you get to where you need glow plugs buy motorcraft only.

01-08-2015, 11:10 PM	#11
Nuts Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: middletown,oh Posts: 508	WD40 is supposed to work and be easier on them if you have to spray.

01-09-2015, 08:50 AM	#12
blazerbrad - CORE Member - Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 831 Images: 6	I've used starting fluid many times over the years, but also only use it as a last resort. Also make sure the glow plugs are disabled. On mine I can get under the hood and unplug the connector from the controller. Here are some lessons I have learned with owning an older diesel for 20 years. - Cranking speed is extremely important and obviously directly tied to battery condition. I have actually replaced older batteries in my diesel because it was struggling to start in the cold, and then used these old batteries in other gas vehicles for a couple of years with no issues. - Check glow plug conditions. On your truck it's probably pretty easy to run through and check the plugs. - 2 hours with the block heater is not even close to long enough to be fully effective. I would leave it plugged in all night.

01-10-2015, 03:20 PM	#14
blustroker woods beater Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: ryland heights ky Posts: 52	I have a 95 psd as well. Since your glowplugs aren't that old, if the relay is working as it should, first place I would look is the under valve cover harness. Fairly common issue. In some of the cheap (non motorcraft) replacement harnesses I've seen the wires for the glowplugs fail in just a few years. Only time my truck gets plugged in is when I know I am using it in the morning. Even at -3 the other morning, cycled glowplugs twice and she fired right up. She makes a lot of noise and smokes but starts. Glowplugs, relay, and harnesses are probably 5+ yrs old. Batteries are stickered 2007. If you use ether, disable the glowplugs as you can blow the tip off in the cylinder. I run 15-40w year round btw. __________________ 85 toyota ex cab a few goodies

01-10-2015, 04:45 PM	#15
itbrokeagain Just Empty Every Pocket - CORE Member - Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Amelia Posts: 1,435	The valve cover gasket was replaced a few years but I don't know of Motorcraft was used. I am replacing them again soon though because they are leaking again and will be replaced with Motorcraft. My batteries are stickered 2012 __________________ 91 fj 80 on 37 Nitto Muds with a 10k winch. Cage and sliders coming soon.

01-10-2015, 05:01 PM	#17
blustroker woods beater Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: ryland heights ky Posts: 52	Top passenger side of the engine right next to the fuel filter bowl. __________________ 85 toyota ex cab a few goodies

01-10-2015, 05:45 PM	#18
blustroker woods beater Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: ryland heights ky Posts: 52	Also, 2 small wires and 2 large on the relay. Obviously 2 large are power in/out. On the small wires, one gets 12v with ignition power, the other gets grounded by the pcm to turn it off/on. Power runs through fuse #22 under hood. This fuse is also for the fuel heater in the bowl. If it turns out your relay is bad, you can upgrade to a heavier duty relay cheap. You can get one at any local Western plow dealer. Part# 56131k-1. Should be around $15. Ford relay is $60. FYI.. I went through 2 ford relays in 4yrs. Still using the same western relay for the last 6. Looks the same as the ford also. __________________ 85 toyota ex cab a few goodies

01-10-2015, 06:12 PM	#19
donaldcon Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Lancaster Ohio Posts: 383	Started my 6.slow at 6am. Hasnt been started since Saturday. Not plugged in either One glow plug cycle. about 6 cranks, and fire. it would start 2 months ago at 40 degrees, with 3 year old batteries. Just replaced them last month and no issues yet. __________________ www.offroadohio.com www.facebook.com/offroadohio1 www.youtube.com/offroadohio1 www.photobucket.com/offroadohio

01-11-2015, 11:05 AM	#20
blazerbrad - CORE Member - Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 831 Images: 6	I went back and read the original post again....so the truck started at -5 degrees with only being plugged in for 2 hours. Seems like the only concern was that it took some extra cranking before it fired. To be honest it really doesn't sound like anything too serious. A good point about not being able to plug it in at work and would be a concern if the truck wouldn't start if below 30 or 40 degrees, but again at -5 I'm not sure I would be too worried about it. Just another thought and I'm not sure how a '95 7.3 is setup, but assuming it has some sort of cold start function that increases the idle and advances the timing? The timing advance solenoid helps cold starting and is controlled by a temperature sender, which is separate from the one controlling the engine temp gauge. Years ago when my stopped working it made cold starting more difficult.

01-11-2015, 08:39 PM	#21
underpowered They call me......Scuba Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Burlington, KY Posts: 292	extra crank time that cold is not bad IMO. my 00 7.3 powerstroke will start without being plugged in down to about 0, once it goes negative it starts to get harder to start. as for glow plugs, you don't have to cycle them, the light goes off just to say it should start, but they will continue to stay on up to 2 minutes, even once the light goes off they are still actually on so just leave the key on for a bit longer and try to start instead of cycling it again. __________________ beat up rusted out k5

01-11-2015, 10:00 PM	#22
itbrokeagain Just Empty Every Pocket - CORE Member - Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Amelia Posts: 1,435	I will look under my visor. I do not push the throttle. I think I need to check my gp relay. It's been too cold and I haven't been home the past few days __________________ 91 fj 80 on 37 Nitto Muds with a 10k winch. Cage and sliders coming soon.

01-11-2015, 11:31 PM	#23
fordman00 Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 433	Never heard of giving it throttle. But if you Google how to check your glow plug relay it's fairly simple takes 5 min. I can't remember off the top of my head.

01-12-2015, 09:21 AM	#24
blustroker woods beater Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: ryland heights ky Posts: 52	Extra crank time is common when it's that cold if not plugged in. But the fact it was plugged in and still had to go through extra cranking says something is not working. Another thought being that our injectors are oil fired, could be bleeding oil past worn injector o-rings. Taking longer to build enough oil pressure to fire the injectors. Just a thought. __________________ 85 toyota ex cab a few goodies

01-12-2015, 09:55 AM	#25
blazerbrad - CORE Member - Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 831 Images: 6	On my '90 Chevy the user's manual states to hold the throttle down 1/2 way when starting in the cold. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the truck started at -5 degrees so obviously the batteries were not completely drained. It sounds like the truck was cranked enough to start noticing a decrease in battery performance, which really doesn't take very long on an engine like this at those temps.